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Not to rain on the H2H.fr parade, but - 7/16/2003 7:59:40 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		The removal of the "*" in H2H.fr is going to make everyone take a very defensive attitude when PBEMing.

This will:
1) make for boring games;

2) mean that our current 20 turn avg game will have to be seriously lengthened to account for all the careful probing that will need to be done to protect high value assets (i.e. your AFVs);

3) cause everyone to buy massive amounts of infantry and AT guns which will further bog the game down.

These observations come from just playing a quick desert scenario at random. It went like this: Move jeep up until it was destroyed by the first shot from an unseen tank. Rally scouts that were passengers to down to suppression of 1 (they see nothing); Move up an HT, one shot and still see nothing, move up a tank, one shot, one kill, but I spot a PzIVg. Move HT again, two shots and a dead HT but I now see a PzIIf and a Pz38(t). That's an expensive way to locate your enemy.

I just don't see the use of any more than a token amount of tanks. Convince me I'm wrong, please. As it is, I plan of being a very mediocre H2H.fr player.

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Post #: 1
Sorry RB - 7/16/2003 8:26:49 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		It seems that I have to disagree with you again. It will not affect my play at all. I don't use the "*" at all. In 7.1 or H2H.

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Post #: 2
- 7/16/2003 8:34:33 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		You and JJ say that all the time, but I really find it hard to believe. How is it that you always seem to stop just outside of my LOS? Is that just luck? I never get good ambushes on either of you and you aren't just randomly poppin smoke when you bail your crews from a perfectly good vehicle. You're doing it for a reason.

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 3
- 7/16/2003 9:08:13 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I never bail from a good vehicle, and if you do it in the new H2H you will be in for a surprize because the crews die easy and they don't have smoke. I'm currentlyt in a game were my opponent routinly bails from his scout vehical because his crews fight better, its a little gamey but I'm trying to find way to counter it any tips RB ?



I try to use scouts. I normally see the other person first. You will not have too much of a problem you normally play with a scout screen.

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Post #: 4
Re: Not to rain on the H2H.fr parade, but - 7/16/2003 10:56:51 AM   
Gallo Rojo


Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]The removal of the "*" in H2H.fr is going to make everyone take a very defensive attitude when PBEMing.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have been playing PBEM on SPMBT, which don't have neither the "*" nor the "movenmet-delay-efect-when-the-unit-is-spoted", and I do see my oponents (or me) taking a very defensive attitude at all. So I don't believe that the removal of the "*" wil have this efect on the SPH2H.

best,
Gallo

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Post #: 5
- 7/16/2003 1:29:02 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I hope you guys are right. Once you're really mixed up (like our current game JJ), it doesn't make that much difference.

JJ, you have to suppress those crews to keep them from recrewing the vehicle. That means arty or splash damaging direct fire or a serious morale hurtin' like losing a big tank nearby. Not much else you can do about the bailed crews. Good Luck!

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 6
- 7/16/2003 5:27:15 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]

JJ, you have to suppress those crews to keep them from recrewing the vehicle. That means arty or splash damaging direct fire or a serious morale hurtin' like losing a big tank nearby. Not much else you can do about the bailed crews. Good Luck! [/B][/QUOTE]

poor viking !!

i think he caused much more casualities to me esp. in tanks ! so he now has problems with my crews ? funny thing !

but another note: i played a test game H2H and see some kills from crews as usual in normal SPWAW :confused:

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Post #: 7
- 7/16/2003 5:35:25 PM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]but another note: i played a test game H2H and see some kills from crews as usual in normal SPWAW :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

And you will see kills from crews in the future, but not as usual, believe me...test a bit more...they die faster, they kill less and they cost more. Anyone throwing carelessly around his crews will give his opponent 15 victory pts for every crew annihilated...that's as much as some armies infantry squads...

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[URL=http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/panzer_leo_spw@w/spwaw_h2h_modrework.php] [IMG]http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/panzer_leo_spw@w/PzLeos-H2H-Title-1.jpg[/IMG] [/URL]

Mir nach, ich folge euch !

(in reply to rbrunsman)
Post #: 8
- 7/16/2003 5:43:34 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]And you will see kills from crews in the future, but not as usual, believe me...test a bit more...they die faster, they kill less and they cost more. Anyone throwing carelessly around his crews will give his opponent 15 victory pts for every crew annihilated...that's as much as some armies infantry squads... [/B][/QUOTE]

as long as not such things happen:

(normal SPWAW) a british crew of 2 or 3 men killed a man from me to 4 hexes distance ! that w/ a pistol !! but it was a crew played by viking. his troops are generally better than average :D

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Post #: 9
- 7/17/2003 4:25:47 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Thats not what I am refering to, what I'm talking about is
; bailing crews on purpose just to get the extra infantry troop for assaulting vehicles(because they fight better than the vehicle they came from), for example if I bail a crew out of truck the crew can now assault any tank close, where as the truck could assault a vehicle. IMHO I just believe you should not do this tactic. In the new H2H the ranges on the crews have been reduced ( Insert Aplause here ) and the crew can try to assault but it is much harded and there is a much less chance of them succeeding. Plus they don't fight well. Currently a crew can hold off and sometimes beat up a infintry squad, and assault most vehicles with a chance of success.



If a crew is forced to bail or is a left over of a vehicle kills, thats different, I think they fight to well but if there going to be killed next turn then shoot until they run out of ammo.

I agree with you on the crew BTW

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Post #: 10
- 7/17/2003 4:48:18 AM   
K62


Posts: 666
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]bailing crews on purpose just to get the extra infantry troop for assaulting vehicles(because they fight better than the vehicle they came from), for example if I bail a crew out of truck the crew can now assault any tank close, where as the truck could assault a vehicle. IMHO I just believe you should not do this tactic
[/B][/QUOTE]

But if you have a problem with that then you should also have a problem with driving a HT full of infantry up to a tank and assaulting it :eek: It's the same mechanism :p

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Post #: 11
- 7/17/2003 5:12:17 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		No, infanty with AT weapons and Grenades trained to assault tanks, vs a crew of sometime as low as one person doing it is completely different. If you read past post of mine ( which you do ). I think anything riding on a vehicle, except a troop carriers should not be able to do anything but unload. This is just not possible to do within the game.

I know it gets cold in NY ( causes brain freeze ) but surely you wouldn't have me belive the three guys the a trained to drive a truck are on par with a infintry squad in a infantry carrier.


The more times you assault the more suppression a tank gets so if you can assault with crews a couple of times first then you just plie up the suppression, until the tank is useless. And if the tank drive into a bunck of crews then bad on the tank.

Again my point is forceing crew to bail just to get extra infantry is not something I agree with.

(in reply to rbrunsman)
Post #: 12
- 7/17/2003 5:25:51 AM   
K62


Posts: 666
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B] I know it gets cold in NY ( causes brain freeze ) [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, it seems the weather in Hawaii makes some people fire up over nothing :rolleyes: Did you think much of this "pun" ?! :confused:

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"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak"
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Post #: 13
- 7/17/2003 5:39:44 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Aloha, your time will come .........Monty

I'm at linch your turn will have t wait until after work......Mr K62

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Post #: 14
- 7/17/2003 5:45:28 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		V2 has only one weakness: you start mentioning crews doing anything else but driving and he goes nuts.;) It's like if say to my dad, "So, Dad, what do you think about evolution? Pretty good theory for explaining the origin of species isn't it?" He always goes balistic when I do that and he's a very mellow person otherwise. (And, don't get me started on Ski Troops!:mad: )

My take on the subject of crews: If you shoot my vehicle and the crew survives, then the crew is just another pawn in the chessmatch that is SPWAW; if my jeep or truck gets itself in a bad position and is going to die next turn because of it, I bail the crew and have them do as much damage as possible before going down; Intentionally drive a soft vehicle up to an AFV, bail the crew and have them assault the AFV, NO. If you're going to do that, then I'm going to start buying Uhus or a bunch of Greyhounds with M9s riding shotgun, etc.

It comes down to my hotbutton issue: Just tell me in advance that this will be a "pull all the stops" and win by any means possible match. It's only fair for both players to be on the same page when the game is being set up.

And by the way,,, I think the "*" should be put back in H2H.fr.:p

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 15
- 7/17/2003 5:55:25 AM   
K62


Posts: 666
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: DC
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]No, infanty with AT weapons and Grenades trained to assault tanks, vs a crew of sometime as low as one person doing it is completely different.

surely you wouldn't have me belive the three guys the a trained to drive a truck are on par with a infintry squad in a infantry carrier.
[/B][/QUOTE]

They [I]are[/I] different in the game. An entire squad with an AT weapon gets 20 times the assault chance of a crewman.

But my point actually is (and I hope there is someone out there who will agree with me on this): driving HTs full of infantry and then assaulting the tank is [I]also[/I] kinda gamey. If the guys could really get down from the back of the truck to assault with their Panzerwerfmine, then so can the driver step down from the front of the truck and do whatever with his screw-driver or something :D

As for the suppression: I haven't actually been in such a situation, but I imagine its kinda scary to realize someone is on your tank trying to blow it up. I also imagine it's kinda hard to realize what kind of weapons they have so you know how scared you should get :D

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"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak"
John Adams

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Post #: 16
- 7/17/2003 7:06:39 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Ok Ok if the crew is a suviror of a kill or forced to bail by the enemy, then I guess (gulp) I can agree. I can even see if a vehicle is broke down an you bail them. Use them however


:cool:

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Post #: 17
- 7/17/2003 10:40:31 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I bail the crew and have them do as much damage as possible before going down; [/B][/QUOTE]

that´s it. if u know your vehicle will be dead ( as well as the crew ) next turn why not bail the crew out ?

but i will concentrate on H2H where the crews are more useless as in SPWAW. and the light, soft vehicles cost more....

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Post #: 18
- 7/17/2003 10:45:57 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by K62
[B]
But my point actually is (and I hope there is someone out there who will agree with me on this): driving HTs full of infantry and then assaulting the tank is [I]also[/I] kinda gamey. If the guys could really get down from the back of the truck to assault with their Panzerwerfmine, then so can the driver step down from the front of the truck and do whatever with his screw-driver or something :D
:D [/B][/QUOTE]

i agree ! but everyone uses this tactic.

it´s a game. it has some unrealistic aspects of course. as well as the turn based system in itself is unrealistic ( but i don´t say here that i like real time games ! )....

as well as vikings well known tactic using much flame thrower vehicles. that vehicles were in reality used to fight forts, bunkers and field fortifications. and not fighting tanks in woods or even open terrain. there AT value is much to high in game, too.

but i don´t complain, because it´s a game.

or the mass use of smoke which in the game is to static IMHO. in real life ( i think ) the smoke dissapears quite fast even from light winds....

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Post #: 19
- 7/18/2003 12:32:52 AM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]And you will see kills from crews in the future, but not as usual, believe me...test a bit more...they die faster, they kill less and they cost more. Anyone throwing carelessly around his crews will give his opponent 15 victory pts for every crew annihilated...that's as much as some armies infantry squads... [/B][/QUOTE]

...not to forget the "crews" now take care more about their health and stopped smokin´! :D

I would have prefered to have removed the slot one1 weapon and shifted it to slot2, which in return would have removed some more issues, but....;)

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Post #: 20
- 7/18/2003 2:53:34 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		As long as everyone is disregarding the original theme of this thread. ;)

I'm seeing my MGs look like helicopters in my old H2H games that I'm finishing up in the new H2H. This is just an icon anomoly obviously and isn't causing any problems, but my question is, where/when do you get to use helicopters in SPWAW? I've never seen them before.

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 21
- 7/18/2003 2:56:23 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B] but my question is, where/when do you get to use helicopters in SPWAW? I've never seen them before. [/B][/QUOTE]

You don't. The shp files have some unused modern equipment pictures. Some sort of a carryover from SP3 I guess...

Voriax

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Post #: 22
- 7/18/2003 4:18:32 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Thanks. And I'm correct that it's just an icon issue and has nothing to do with playability? They're my "helicopters" so my opponents may be a little concerned to see them.:)

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 23
- 7/22/2003 1:20:00 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]You don't. The shp files have some unused modern equipment pictures. Some sort of a carryover from SP3 I guess...

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

AFAIK, the SHPs in SPWAW [I]are[/I] the SHPs from SP3. If you open some up and look at the icons (using SHPed) you'll find everything from the old WWI tanks to M1A1 Abrams and Bradleys. Since the old and modern units are scattered randomly among the SHP files, the entire set was carried over.

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 24
- 7/22/2003 1:28:49 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]As long as everyone is disregarding the original theme of this thread. ;)

I'm seeing my MGs look like helicopters in my old H2H games that I'm finishing up in the new H2H. This is just an icon anomoly obviously and isn't causing any problems, but my question is, where/when do you get to use helicopters in SPWAW? I've never seen them before. [/B][/QUOTE]

In order to make the new 'move-and-shoot' MMGs Panzer Leo had to create them from scratch, and insert them into an existing weapon slot...he mentioned that icon slot he used was originally occupied by a helicopter. :eek:

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 25
- 7/24/2003 6:25:57 AM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline 		What is H2H? Is it a derivitive of Steel Panthers World at War or a completely seperate game?

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Post #: 26
- 7/24/2003 7:03:09 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		It's the same as SPWAW just a little different. The OOBs are different and the pricing scheme is wrecked (IMHO ;) ). There are a few other differences (e.g. elimination of the "*") but nothing that would prevent you from understanding the game.

You don't need to know anything special to be just as good at H2H as you are at v7.1.

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 27
- 7/26/2003 1:27:59 AM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]
You don't need to know anything special to be just as good at H2H as you are at v7.1. [/B][/QUOTE]

Or just as bad in my case.

So, where is the download? Is it a completely seperat install or just a patch to SP:WaW? i.e. Should I make duplicate directories and then apply the file changes to one of them?

(in reply to rbrunsman)
Post #: 28
- 7/26/2003 1:33:15 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]. Should I make duplicate directories and then apply the file changes to one of them? [/B][/QUOTE]

YES ! :)

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Post #: 29
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