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Cheeze strategies - 2/26/2020 6:25:01 PM

AlvaroSousa

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So let's have it. I have been playing 4 games to test balance. I need input on the cheese strategies employed by players that seem to break the game system.

I have heard the following ones.

#1 Russia just runs away and never let's the Germans attack them. There is no incentive for them to defend. I very likely will remedy this but putting factories in the way on a schedule of relocation. And/Or slow down default unit experience gain to force the Russians to fight and defend.

#2 Building mountain units instead of normal units for the Russians. What I might do is reverse logistics and cost. Make it more expensive to buy but normal infantry logistics costs.

#3 Bombing units instead of production - I have made it where you can't do damage to units not in contact with the enemy. This is already in the 1.00.06U4 version.

#4 Invasions - already addressed in the 1.00.06U4 version. In my games I feel reasonably well the defenses for cheese invasion tactics are available to players which will cost cheese invasions dearly.

So list away.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 7:03:45 AM

Franciscus

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re #1, how about to create more Victory points inside Russia (Talinin, Kaunas, Smolensk, Mogilev, Kursk, Kharkov, StalinoOdessa, Sevastopol) ?

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 5:15:49 PM

PanzerMike

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#1 how about Russia losing extra manpower points for losing the big population centers? The manual states that urban areas generate morale and manpower. Losing them should hurt. Maybe it doesn't hurt the Soviets enough? I can imagine Stalin was not keen on losing such a large part of the population to the Germans and that this was an incentive to stand and fight in the West.

And the factories sounds like a good idea also.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 6:09:38 PM

Twotribes

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So the plan is to take away any option the Soviets have to survive while still leaving them with ****ty units that can NOT fight the Germans?

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 7:28:32 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I have 2 games running where it is a mirror game. My opponent took the run away strategy. I decided to fight.

Game #1 Me Allies fought Russian Front - In 1942 he did take key cities like Moscow and Tula pushing toward Archangel. Now it's 1943 and the line has stabilized. I purposely counter attacked. I had a strong Allies this game. He did take Gib by invasion so I invaded Portugal to draw troops away. This is probably a neutral event as the Allies should be in North Africa in 1942.

Game #2 Me Axis Russians 100% ran and didn't fight. In the other game I got close to historical. In 1942 I was still able to do a limited offensive.

It's 1943.
Game #1 Axis are 83% on manpower. Russians making limited attacks in winter. Weaker Germany and Russia
Game #2 Axis are 34% on manpower. Russians making limited attacks in winter. Stronger Germany and Russia (because he didn't inflict losses early but is now inflicting them.

We will see as the game plays out.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 8:50:21 PM

kennonlightfoot

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I thought the Russians took a major hit on manpower, production and logistics when they lose major cities like Moscow, Kursk, Stalingrad, etc.?
The main purpose of a delaying action is so the Axis doesn't reach most of the major cities and Moscow before winter. Which assumes there is a reason for holding these cities as long as you can.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 2/27/2020 9:01:57 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Delay is the right strategy but the current one is literally running away. As soon as the Germans hit a line, run away again. Doesn't make it fun for the Axis. But still testing.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/28/2020 1:28:42 PM

Hairog

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I believe the Germans could advance faster than the Soviets could retreat, especially the civilians. I suggest you slow the soviet units down and reduce their manpower pool with every city taken. As you know, Alvaro, I've long advocated that the Soviets were too mobile.

Constantly retreating would make the units weaker through attrition and just plain shedding equipment like a hiker takes off his parka when it gets warmer. Now he has to carry that parka and does until a bear comes along. then he gets rid of everything but his running shoes.

Have the Soviets take a huge moral hit when they lose certain cities.

Add or increase victory points for certain historical areas that produce food, metal, etc.

All the civilians and Red Army units clogging up the roadways would make it much harder to move the manufacturing equipment to the Urals. Make it so the Reds lose copius factory points when certain cities are captured before certain dates to simulate not being ready or able to move the equipment.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/28/2020 3:57:11 PM

AlvaroSousa

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There is already a mechanism in place to remove manpower as each city is taken with morale or production.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/28/2020 5:50:43 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

I believe the Germans could advance faster than the Soviets could retreat, especially the civilians. I suggest you slow the soviet units down and reduce their manpower pool with every city taken. As you know, Alvaro, I've long advocated that the Soviets were too mobile.

What are you suggesting? Reducing the number of Operation points of Russian Infantry Large Corps from 5 to 4 or 3? Or, do you want to impact more units?

There is an easy way to see if it improves the situation.

Let's do several Europe 1941 PBEM where the Russian player voluntarily limits its movement to 4 operating points for these units.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/29/2020 4:58:02 AM

Hairog

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Sounds good. I'll take the Soviets for the first go round. I may be a little slow on getting turns done. Too many projects going on at once.

I'll put the game up.

PM you with secret code.

What version?

< Message edited by Hairog -- 3/29/2020 4:59:26 AM >

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/29/2020 6:01:26 AM

ncc1701e

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I am using the latest 1.00.06. I will not cheat due to the following bug

and I will respect strictly the operation points of my units:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4782858

I have already setup the game. Code sent by PM.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/29/2020 8:51:51 PM

Hairog

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Sounds good, I accepted.

As I understand it the strategy that's cheesy, is just running away. I'll try that but with one fewer Operational Point.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/30/2020 7:59:10 PM

ncc1701e

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Will send my first turn shortly.

Allies player:

Play only the Eastern front (no move in Africa / ...)

Just to clarify the house rules, operation points for Russian units:
. Headquarters: 4 pts
. Mechanized corps: 5 pts
. Paratrooper corps: 5 pts
. Armor corps: 6 pts
. Cavalry corps: 7 pts
. Infantry army: 5 pts
. Infantry Large corps: 4 pts

We are changing only the Infantry Large corps from 5 operation points to 4.

Axis player:

I will concentrate only on Eastern front. No move in Africa / ...
I will keep all units on the Western front where they are. No transfer to the East.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/31/2020 4:08:22 AM

Hairog

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First turn done. I took 1 point off all the units. You'll notice that they all have 1 left. I screwed up on a few but the vast majority have one ops point.

Let's try it that way first. This will simulate the lack of mobility that the initial Soviet units had as well as the ineptness of the Red Army's commanders. They were paralysed from the top down. From what I've read it was across the board and not just large corps.

If it doesn't look good, we'll start another game.

Alvaro: is it hard to have the game change a units ops points after a few turns? Restrict the Reds for 4 turns and then back to your original numbers.

< Message edited by Hairog -- 3/31/2020 4:10:30 AM >

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/31/2020 4:23:56 AM

Hairog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

There is already a mechanism in place to remove manpower as each city is taken with morale or production.

You're way ahead of me Alvaro, as usual.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 3/31/2020 2:27:03 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I only live to anticipate the needs of my customers.... as long as they are reasonable.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/1/2020 4:39:28 PM

ncc1701e

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Something I am thinking about, slowing down the Red Army is only part of the solution. Because if there is no incentive to protect the western part of USSR, the Russian player can simply form a defensive line away from the border.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/1/2020 5:04:13 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Oh yes there is. If you give too much easy room for the Axis they might push much farther than you think. They might not conquer you but they might cripple you enough where you can't go on the offensive in 1943.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/3/2020 5:46:03 PM

Hairog

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So far more of the Soviet forces are getting cut off but no where near what happened in historical terms. To this point all I've done is run like hell east but I've limited my movement to one less op point. So my units end up with one ops point left.

I've left some units to fight it out where needed to slow down some German units. But the majority are bugging out as per the Cheeze guidelines. I use my air units to attack the lead enemy units and I think this has an effect.

ncc1701e has advance some units very far but the bulk are still too easy to slow down. It's the third turn and I've gotten my first big load of reinforcements. I anticipate being able to close most of my gaps in the line. We'll see.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/3/2020 6:40:04 PM

AlvaroSousa

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You can't replicate the stupidity of Soviet generalship in summer of 1941 in a wargame. You need to fudge it. If the Soviets defended as well as the Germans attacked that war would have been over in 1942.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/3/2020 7:01:30 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

ncc1701e has advance some units very far but the bulk are still too easy to slow down. It's the third turn and I've gotten my first big load of reinforcements. I anticipate being able to close most of my gaps in the line. We'll see.

I can't wait to see your next turn.

By the way, everyone can follow our progress here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4785412

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/4/2020 12:25:07 AM

Hairog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

You can't replicate the stupidity of Soviet generalship in summer of 1941 in a wargame. You need to fudge it. If the Soviets defended as well as the Germans attacked that war would have been over in 1942.

Well, a couple of things. The Reds had just been through a purge. Lots of generals were killed or imprisoned. So imagen being given your orders to defend a certain city or river line. You had just seen you good buddy poisoned, hanged, shot etc. some had their families killed as well. You were told that they did not follow orders too closely or they spoke out against Stalin or they became too powerful and independent.

My question is would you act on your own or possibly disobey orders by bugging out for the rear even if you saw you were going to be surrounded?

Second thought: I would argue that the 1941 Soviet units on the frontline did not have enough fuel or vehicles to outrun the mobile forces thrust forward by the Germans. So even if you told your boys to fall back they would have had to do so on foot and try to out run some very well supplied blitzkrieging panzers and their expert commanders as well as contend with no air support as the enemy interdicted your ... well, everything that tried to move, at will.

Thirdly: I read a book on surprise attacks

Surprise Attack: Lessons for Defense Planning First Edition Edition
by Richard K. Betts (Author)

Basically his premise is that surprise attacks almost always succeed in modern warfare not because of failures in intelligence but because of lack of political will. Most of the time the political leaders to not want to piss off the would be attacker and cause him to attack. One of the ways to lessen a provocative situation is to de-escalate unilaterally. From what I read Stalin was doing just that and would have ordered his generals to stand down.

Once again would you go against a mass murderer's orders knowing that not only are you at risk but also your family? I would contend that not many would.

Hence in game terms, an effective way to model this is to cut mobility dramatically based not on a general's ability at hindsight but on the political reality of the time.

Stalin was virtually comatose for a week after Hitler betrayed him and I would bet my fortune ( all 2 cents worth) that there were standing orders to not prepare for an attack or to provoke the Germans.

John Teller does this in American Civil war games by freezing in place astounding number of the Union forces in almost any one of his many offerings. Ido not propose such draconian and boring a solution.

We'll keep everyone posted on our experiences.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/4/2020 2:00:02 PM

LiquidSky

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Just start the game with all the Russian infantry on garrison. If the Russian player 'reforms' by bringing the unit out of garrison, then it should deserve to have full movement.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/4/2020 2:25:14 PM

ncc1701e

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But still, the massive encirclements of 1941 was due to the initial location of Russian units. Nothing is preventing a player today to wait on the Dnepr river or at Smolensk.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/4/2020 9:22:42 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Well I did change the rail repair mechanism to where if the Russians just run away they will be/should be pushed back more.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/5/2020 1:00:48 AM

Hairog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Just start the game with all the Russian infantry on garrison. If the Russian player 'reforms' by bringing the unit out of garrison, then it should deserve to have full movement.

This sounds interesting.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/7/2020 12:22:58 PM

LiquidSky

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Any russian who does not set up on the front line is going to find themselves at war on the first April turn. The Germans will gladly spend the crappy weather turns moving up to whatever inland defensive line the Russians set up....thus launching Barbarossa that much closer to Moscow.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/15/2020 5:07:23 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Just start the game with all the Russian infantry on garrison. If the Russian player 'reforms' by bringing the unit out of garrison, then it should deserve to have full movement.

This sounds interesting.

Indeed, would be cool to try this also.

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RE: Cheeze strategies - 4/16/2020 6:10:19 AM

Flaviusx

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Liquidsky has the right of it.

If the Germans invade early they can negate any attempts to runaway. So all these attempts to address the runaway are pointless. Just march in there as the Axis if the Soviet lets you. As early as April. Merely advancing the rail net is going to put Moscow in reach before the end of 41.

If anything the Soviets are a bit underpowered in this game. If the Axis make a point of it, they can grind them to powder and only maximum Allied lend lease can keep them in the game. The Soviet economy at war is barely good enough to build one (1) rifle army per turn in 1941, with the balance dedicated to replacements. This is not amazing. Yes, they get a ton of rifle armies as reinforcements, but these arrive as 39 tech and 30% experience. Not great.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/16/2020 6:15:25 AM >

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