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RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase

 
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RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 1:07:09 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

... Indian replacements are just not that great. (Not sure why that is though, always been a bit surprised by that).


A couple of reasons.

1. The Indian army was entirely composed of volunteers. No conscription was in play.

2. Most of the Raj was in fact not directly controlled by Britain. The military forces of the princely territories were raised by their local rulers. Hence the direct British controlled recruiting area was much smaller than people assume it was.

Alfred

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 31
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 1:55:51 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

What's your elegant solution to better represent the complex political and military situation in China at the time then?


IMHO the Chinese OOB provides them with far fewer heavy weapons than was the case historically.
In addition the Japanese are not compelled to put anywhere near as many resources into garrisoning those Chinese cities that they hold at start and are far too capable of amassing a maneuver force to conquer additional cities. Even if the Japanese are not capable of knocking China out of the war completely they can earn a bunch of VPs capturing cities and eliminating Chinese units.

Various modders have revamped the Chinese OOB. It seems that the focus of those Mods is to provide Japan with an ongoing stalemate in China that is nearly impossible to resolve and thus force the Japanese to seek victory fighting against the US, UK, etc.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 32
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 2:03:25 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

What's your elegant solution to better represent the complex political and military situation in China at the time then?


IMHO the Chinese OOB provides them with far fewer heavy weapons than was the case historically.
Does this observation include Babes (such as the scenario 28 variants)?
quote:


In addition the Japanese are not compelled to put anywhere near as many resources into garrisoning those Chinese cities that they hold at start and are far too capable of amassing a maneuver force to conquer additional cities. Even if the Japanese are not capable of knocking China out of the war completely they can earn a bunch of VPs capturing cities and eliminating Chinese units.

Various modders have revamped the Chinese OOB. It seems that the focus of those Mods is to provide Japan with an ongoing stalemate in China that is nearly impossible to resolve and thus force the Japanese to seek victory fighting against the US, UK, etc.

Having experience with Babes scenario 28, I can say it is still a problem to hold China as the Allies.

_____________________________

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(in reply to spence)
Post #: 33
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 3:17:18 PM   
spence

 

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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

What's your elegant solution to better represent the complex political and military situation in China at the time then?



IMHO the Chinese OOB provides them with far fewer heavy weapons than was the case historically.

Does this observation include Babes (such as the scenario 28 variants)?

quote:


In addition the Japanese are not compelled to put anywhere near as many resources into garrisoning those Chinese cities that they hold at start and are far too capable of amassing a maneuver force to conquer additional cities. Even if the Japanese are not capable of knocking China out of the war completely they can earn a bunch of VPs capturing cities and eliminating Chinese units.

Various modders have revamped the Chinese OOB. It seems that the focus of those Mods is to provide Japan with an ongoing stalemate in China that is nearly impossible to resolve and thus force the Japanese to seek victory fighting against the US, UK, etc.


Having experience with Babes scenario 28, I can say it is still a problem to hold China as the Allies.

_____________________________


I have no experience with the Big Babes or any of the extended map Babes but I have found that the Japanese can overrun most of China in Babes Lite (Scen 26?)(It could be that I am particularly bad at fighting the Japanese there). It seems that the Japanese can use their armor to greater advantage than historically racing into the Chinese rear filling their gas tanks from local resources (huh? are we talking about burning dirt). I have proposed changing the Japanese to a truly horse drawn army with a supply system that essentially limits the distance from a real rail-head that any Japanese unit can be supplied (not being truly computer-literate I don't know whether this is even possible within the game system).

In any case I have started a Big B Mod game but it's only in Feb 42 so I don't know if the Japanese will face a stalemate in China...it seems so so far. I can say that the Chinese have a very different OOB than in Babes or 'Vanilla AE'.

In addition the garrison requirements for both sides are in general doubled over 'Vanilla AE's' requirements so if the either side advances very far much more of their army is tied down in garrison duty.

< Message edited by spence -- 2/27/2020 3:22:24 PM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 34
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 11:28:20 PM   
specie1

 

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quote:



Not worth the cost unless part of a West Coast strategy. Better to just take Victoria and bomb Seattle or land at Astoria and wipe out the Portland shipyards.


quote:



when you say land at astoria and wipe out the portland shipyards are you saying that you have to take portland to kill the ships in the yard? There's no way to bomb them?

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 35
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/27/2020 11:55:13 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

... Indian replacements are just not that great. (Not sure why that is though, always been a bit surprised by that).


A couple of reasons.

1. The Indian army was entirely composed of volunteers. No conscription was in play.

2. Most of the Raj was in fact not directly controlled by Britain. The military forces of the princely territories were raised by their local rulers. Hence the direct British controlled recruiting area was much smaller than people assume it was.

Alfred

Ahh, I had forgotten about that "The military forces of the princely territories were raised by their local rulers."

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 36
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 12:31:36 AM   
spence

 

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quote:


quote:



Not worth the cost unless part of a West Coast strategy. Better to just take Victoria and bomb Seattle or land at Astoria and wipe out the Portland shipyards.


quote:



when you say land at astoria and wipe out the portland shipyards are you saying that you have to take portland to kill the ships in the yard? There's no way to bomb them?

(in reply to obvert)



Taking Portland will wipe out all future production but bombing damage can be repaired so the ships that aren't built until 1943+ can still be built (not that much gets built in 1942).


< Message edited by spence -- 2/28/2020 12:32:12 AM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 37
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 3:13:32 AM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:


quote:



Not worth the cost unless part of a West Coast strategy. Better to just take Victoria and bomb Seattle or land at Astoria and wipe out the Portland shipyards.


quote:



when you say land at astoria and wipe out the portland shipyards are you saying that you have to take portland to kill the ships in the yard? There's no way to bomb them?

(in reply to obvert)



Taking Portland will wipe out all future production but bombing damage can be repaired so the ships that aren't built until 1943+ can still be built (not that much gets built in 1942).


I thought any ships not yet arrived were announced as destroyed as soon as the arrival base was captured by the enemy?

_____________________________

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(in reply to spence)
Post #: 38
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 3:37:41 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

What's your elegant solution to better represent the complex political and military situation in China at the time then?


IMHO the Chinese OOB provides them with far fewer heavy weapons than was the case historically.
Does this observation include Babes (such as the scenario 28 variants)?
quote:


In addition the Japanese are not compelled to put anywhere near as many resources into garrisoning those Chinese cities that they hold at start and are far too capable of amassing a maneuver force to conquer additional cities. Even if the Japanese are not capable of knocking China out of the war completely they can earn a bunch of VPs capturing cities and eliminating Chinese units.

Various modders have revamped the Chinese OOB. It seems that the focus of those Mods is to provide Japan with an ongoing stalemate in China that is nearly impossible to resolve and thus force the Japanese to seek victory fighting against the US, UK, etc.

Having experience with Babes scenario 28, I can say it is still a problem to hold China as the Allies.

Agreed, holding china as the allies is difficult, but possible. There were a couple of AAR's several years back that showed how to do it, both ended early, but the results were quite clear; CK would not fall in '42. Most players fail to recognize this for what it is: an allied victory. If the IJ goes for CK and fails to get it in '42, this translates into a huge amount of supply used; supply that will not be recouped. To be successful, IJ needs to take CK in '42 and as early as possible to minimize the supply usage. 6 months of daily bombing in CHI can easily burn 1M supply. That's what the allies want.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 39
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 10:04:16 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Taking Portland will wipe out all future production but bombing damage can be repaired so the ships that aren't built until 1943+ can still be built (not that much gets built in 1942).

I thought any ships not yet arrived were announced as destroyed as soon as the arrival base was captured by the enemy?

witpqs, yes. Clean sheet, no more ships from that base. They all appear in the VP section as destroyed with half VPs awarded

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 40
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 12:50:27 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Taking Portland will wipe out all future production but bombing damage can be repaired so the ships that aren't built until 1943+ can still be built (not that much gets built in 1942).

I thought any ships not yet arrived were announced as destroyed as soon as the arrival base was captured by the enemy?

witpqs, yes. Clean sheet, no more ships from that base. They all appear in the VP section as destroyed with half VPs awarded


Which is a LOT of VPs at Portland.

I was just saying that if you don't want to activate CONUS reinforcements you could land in Canada and bomb for VPs (not for ending production) and take your points and go home later without much cost.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 41
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 7:12:29 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
I was just saying that if you don't want to activate CONUS reinforcements you could land in Canada and bomb for VPs (not for ending production) and take your points and go home later without much cost.

Man that is far easier said (or in this case, typed) than done.... knowing when to cut and run and still having the wherewithal to do it, that's not easy.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 42
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 7:37:22 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
I was just saying that if you don't want to activate CONUS reinforcements you could land in Canada and bomb for VPs (not for ending production) and take your points and go home later without much cost.

Man that is far easier said (or in this case, typed) than done.... knowing when to cut and run and still having the wherewithal to do it, that's not easy.

Like the Bay of Bengal, the Gulf of Alaska and the Canadian WC forms a pocket that can be a trap if the enemy gains superiority at sea (including carrier air dominance). Then there is the logistics LOC distance and long road home for crippled IJ ships.

Because of all that, the appropriate strategy might be to drop off strong enough forces to do the damage and sail away, leaving them to their eventual fate. Buy-back of units makes that less painful - or you can hold back a few cadres for rebuilding.

And because the IJ can invade Canada so easily, I would insist on a house rule allowing US troops to cross the border without PP paid whenever Japan invades any base from Kodiak eastwards. It is unthinkable that the US would not have reacted as soon as the threat was seen.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 43
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 10:31:35 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		There was an AAR wherein someone pulled off a surprise invasion of Portland (Jan 42 IIRC) and wiped out the shipyard there. Unless the Allied Player has his head "up and locked" in the early game it is pretty unlikely that this feat can be repeated. There are quite a few divisions nearby that are in the West Coast command that can make any such Japanese undertaking so expensive as to be not worth the effort.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 44
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/28/2020 11:27:39 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		I think that someone did that to a noob. I think that a couple of people tried the Allied side after that but it was difficult.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to spence)
Post #: 45
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/29/2020 1:03:50 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
It is unthinkable that the US would not have reacted as soon as the threat was seen.


Hey, forget you hosers. You're on your own, eh?

_____________________________


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 46
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/29/2020 1:20:22 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
It is unthinkable that the US would not have reacted as soon as the threat was seen.


Hey, forget you hosers. You're on your own, eh?

Right. How many Japanese have ever seen a Canadian moose? Or grizzly bear? And then there is the c-c-cold weather.
The Japs couldn't pack up and leave fast enough.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 47
RE: Japanese Strategic Options: Late Bonus Phase - 2/29/2020 9:35:13 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
I was just saying that if you don't want to activate CONUS reinforcements you could land in Canada and bomb for VPs (not for ending production) and take your points and go home later without much cost.

Man that is far easier said (or in this case, typed) than done.... knowing when to cut and run and still having the wherewithal to do it, that's not easy.


Not at all. Cut and run immediately with the ground troops that took the base. Leave a few naval guards in bases, engineers and a base force or two, plus some AA. Then bombs away.

In early 42 there aren't many good sweepers to clear a base like this, and even 4Es would have to face some tough CAP. Just something to try.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 48
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