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RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 6:55:56 PM   
RangerJoe


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How is any organization, be it a hospital, a pharmasceutical company, or any manufacturer, be able to provide things free of charge and continue to be viable? They can make it as low cost as is possible and some do so. It is up to the healthcare organizations to decide what they need to do their requested jobs. Last October, why didn't you ask your local healthcare organization to be able to test you and anyone else who needed to be tested?

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 3/7/2020 6:57:12 PM >


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Post #: 391
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 8:46:46 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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Fixed it for you:

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Lack of test kits, that was our dilemma... I heard somewhere that CDC employees were so addled by the smoke at their Bernie rallies they were developing Corona Beer test kits instead.

They thought about stockpiling limes to go with them but I guess there are already enough fruits at the agency...


That's not intended to be political - it's just humor. If it offends you please disregard.

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Post #: 392
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 9:23:01 PM   
durnedwolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

Fixed it for you:

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Lack of test kits, that was our dilemma... I heard somewhere that CDC employees were so addled by the smoke at their Bernie rallies they were developing Corona Beer test kits instead.

They thought about stockpiling limes to go with them but I guess there are already enough fruits at the agency...


That's not intended to be political - it's just humor. If it offends you please disregard.


I'm good with the reverse psychology thing you are using - it's just that other than the first sentence, that's not my actual quote. And I really-really like the GEICO Pinocchio picture. I would have left that in or used something more to your preference.

Anyways - as long as we can joke about it w/o feeling burnt - I'm totally fine with your "fix."


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DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

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Post #: 393
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 9:43:16 PM   
JohnDillworth


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If the current rate of infections continues to double every 6 days we will be at 1 million cases by the end of April. In the United States, only 2,000 tests have been administered as of yesterday. I think it is safe to assume there are many, many cases that have not been detected because they have not been tested. I suspect we will see a massive acceleration this week. The United States has 800,000 hospital beds. 500,000 are currently occupied. Figure 10% of patients will need hospitalization. We will run out of hospital beds by summer unless the rate of infection is slowed considerably. Exponential math is not kind here. Italy had 20 cases 2 weeks ago. They are now approaching 6,000. There is no reason to think that the United States will fare any better than Italy. I also am having doubts about Chinas reporting of things getting better.

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 3/7/2020 9:46:33 PM >


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Post #: 394
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:04:08 PM   
Canoerebel


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Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.


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Post #: 395
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:07:03 PM   
witpqs


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I don't recall the figure, but I heard yesterday the % of US hospital beds occupied is way over 90%.

But I guess the really relevant figure is mechanical ventilators available in case of need, because they are the critical item which keeps the worst cases alive to get over the infection.

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Post #: 396
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:14:50 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.



For one thing, there could be lots of unreported mild cases in China. That could be part of the difficulty in figuring out the actual mortality rate of the disease.

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Post #: 397
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:16:54 PM   
btd64


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there's suppose to be something like 995,000 critical care beds in the US. Along with what witpqs just stated, that doesn't leave a lot of beds for the virus patients.if this thing explodes....GP

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Post #: 398
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:19:17 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I don't recall the figure, but I heard yesterday the % of US hospital beds occupied is way over 90%.


And the economic incentive to empty them is....? I expect if there's a critical need for more beds, then we'll suddenly learn that quite a few of the "must be hospitalized" will somehow be found ready for early discharge. One would also hope that administrators are looking at their upcoming schedules and identifying elective surgeries and low priority stuff which could be pushed out to ensure there's more room.

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Post #: 399
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:24:23 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.




Amen. The numbers don't lie. And much of the exponential growth in China was due to factors which no longer apply. Also, people keep using flu-spread analogies and that is flat-out wrong. Infection rates for Covid-19 are literally orders of magnitude lower. I'm not making that stuff up - it's hard data straight from the agencies themselves.

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Post #: 400
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:24:36 PM   
Canoerebel


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So, China has tons of unreported cases running around? We probably will too.

China has had 80k case and roughly 3k deaths. More than 43k recoveries in China, now.

Unless there's wonkiness with the numbers, I cannot foresee how this turns out radically worse in the USA. We have 20% of China's population. I don't know about China's healthcare, but I have a high degree of confidence in ours. I think ours has a flexibility and adaptability that few other countries have, because it's still more or less privately controlled.

It will be a statistical anomaly if this turns out 10x USA vs. China. The only reason I can foresee that happening in the USA is if the virus morphs in some way to make it much more virulent. No sign of that happening, thus far.


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Post #: 401
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:25:44 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.





How is the situation in China similar to what any other country is doing to battle this outbreak?

They didn’t shut events, they shut entire provinces down, and NO ONE could leave their homes. At all. Dozens of millions of people. So they did get the RO below 1, but those people also have no immunity to the disease and are now back at work and going about business as normal. When will the next phase begin and cases again spike there?

Europe and the US especially will never do what China did, and the strain we now have spreading may even be different than the one that began there. More transmittable but less virulent hopefully.

I hope this strain is also less transmittable in the warmer weather of spring. The seasonal change could help us more than anything. Fingers crossed.



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Post #: 402
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:28:20 PM   
Canoerebel


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China was caught off-guard. We weren't. We have a big advantage there. And I suspect our healthcare system will prove better at coping with this.

I realize China imposed draconian (and arguably necessary) lockdown measures that won't be replicated in the good ol' USA. But we have the advantage of two months of knowledge about this and an excellent healthcare system.


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Post #: 403
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 10:42:20 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

How is the situation in China similar to what any other country is doing to battle this outbreak?

They didn’t shut events, they shut entire provinces down, and NO ONE could leave their homes. At all. Dozens of millions of people. So they did get the RO below 1, but those people also have no immunity to the disease and are now back at work and going about business as normal. When will the next phase begin and cases again spike there?

Europe and the US especially will never do what China did, and the strain we now have spreading may even be different than the one that began there. More transmittable but less virulent hopefully.


But they did NOT do that at the beginning. It took about a month, and by then 100's of thousands of people had passed through the infected areas and moved all across the country. It doesn't matter how draconian your response is - give the flu a 1-month head start and "containment" is laughable. But somehow, it worked in China....why is that? The infection rate. It takes time for this thing to spread. It is not exponential. 1 person doesn't infect 50, more like 3 or 5.

That's the silver lining here. The rate of transmission is low enough that even if you fail to contain it completely, the growth of cases in each area should still be slow enough that the medical system can keep pace.

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Post #: 404
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 11:40:00 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

So, China has tons of unreported cases running around? We probably will too.

China has had 80k case and roughly 3k deaths. More than 43k recoveries in China, now.

Unless there's wonkiness with the numbers, I cannot foresee how this turns out radically worse in the USA. We have 20% of China's population. I don't know about China's healthcare, but I have a high degree of confidence in ours. I think ours has a flexibility and adaptability that few other countries have, because it's still more or less privately controlled.

It will be a statistical anomaly if this turns out 10x USA vs. China. The only reason I can foresee that happening in the USA is if the virus morphs in some way to make it much more virulent. No sign of that happening, thus far.



quote:

So, China has tons of unreported cases running around? We probably will too.

China has had 80k case and roughly 3k deaths. More than 43k recoveries in China, now.

Unless there's wonkiness with the numbers, I cannot foresee how this turns out radically worse in the USA. We have 20% of China's population. I don't know about China's healthcare, but I have a high degree of confidence in ours. I think ours has a flexibility and adaptability that few other countries have, because it's still more or less privately controlled.

It will be a statistical anomaly if this turns out 10x USA vs. China. The only reason I can foresee that happening in the USA is if the virus morphs in some way to make it much more virulent. No sign of that happening, thus far.


first off I don't believe China's numbers. They had a number of advantages. It started in one place, they knew about it early, they practice this stuff (they fired all the party members for the substandard SARS response and replaced them with people that were trained to deal with similar outbreaks), and they have a form of government that can quarantine 30 million people over night and build hospitals in 10 days, they make most of the stuff they need to deal with this. The United States has multiple hot spots so this is breaking out in many locations at the same time. The centralized response, so far, has been transparent to me. Italy's cases are doubling every 2.6 days. That rate has held steady for 2 weeks. Last Friday we had 1 or two confirmed cases. Today we have over 400 cases with only 2,000 people tested. 20% of adjacent people tested are testing positive. 20%. What do you think is going to happen if we test a million? Not sure what flexibility and adaptability you are talking about. We only have enough beds, respirators and hospitals to meet immediate business demand with a slight reserve. We are short of masks, tests, respirators, critical care beds. Where is the centralized response? Close schools? Stadiums? Events? Travel? Who is deciding these things? Local government but usually these are business decisions. There is no central government response. I know we don't do politics here but to call the Governor of a state begging for help a snake and then go golfing the next day is not inspiring a lot of confidence. The federal government needs to step it up and lead in a big, big way and I see little evidence of it. What is the plan?

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Post #: 405
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 11:46:10 PM   
Wuffer

 

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I hate to disagree, Kull, but a closer look at the comfirmed cases in France, Italy and Gerrmany strongly suggest otherwise: It really looks exponential. The numbers completely exploded in the last 48h. There is no time left as soon as it spreads in the community, every single case now and every day decides over a pandemic event. :-/
Let's exclude China - we could agree their figures might strongly censured and insofar not really hard data.

And prepare for look downs, I think think they will happen - in fact, just now Italy seemed to shut down all Lombardia and Venice?!`? Source: Reuters, BBC etc. Sry for bad news.

Let me add one personal observation: While having a medical background, I was never really concerned about SARS, MERS, Ebola etc. But this thing might really be different.
And every gouverment whattried to downplay this get really punished, take Iran for example. At least 2-3 MPs are allready dead. France also has infected MP.


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Post #: 406
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 11:55:28 PM   
durnedwolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.





How is the situation in China similar to what any other country is doing to battle this outbreak?

They didn’t shut events, they shut entire provinces down, and NO ONE could leave their homes. At all. Dozens of millions of people. So they did get the RO below 1, but those people also have no immunity to the disease and are now back at work and going about business as normal. When will the next phase begin and cases again spike there?

Europe and the US especially will never do what China did, and the strain we now have spreading may even be different than the one that began there. More transmittable but less virulent hopefully.

I hope this strain is also less transmittable in the warmer weather of spring. The seasonal change could help us more than anything. Fingers crossed.




I didn't realize there were already multiple strains of the virus out. Does the same test kit catch all of the different strains?


_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

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Post #: 407
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 11:56:54 PM   
Canoerebel


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I wouldn't think of ignoring China. That's the only country's that's been most of the way through this thing. To this point, Johns Hopkins and basically every other reporting service I've seen accepts China's numbers. Those numbers are very instructive, IMO. If those numbers are called into question, I'll take due notice. That would be bad. But China's numbers offer the single biggest point of optimism, at this point.

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Post #: 408
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/7/2020 11:59:57 PM   
Wuffer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Chickenboy posted several pages back about one key reason we'll see a bump in positives in the coming week.

If the data coming from China is true, why would we have more than 1,000,000 cases when China has about 80,000, to this point?

As I noted a page or two back, the epidemic grew quickly in China for about a month, then dramatically leveled out and has remained there. IE, only a few hundred new cases per day.

If we follow that general curve, we should see an increase for about three more weeks, then a leveling out.

I can't envision how we'd have 10 times as many cases as China, or anything close.

I just don't see this happening.





How is the situation in China similar to what any other country is doing to battle this outbreak?

They didn’t shut events, they shut entire provinces down, and NO ONE could leave their homes. At all. Dozens of millions of people. So they did get the RO below 1, but those people also have no immunity to the disease and are now back at work and going about business as normal. When will the next phase begin and cases again spike there?

Europe and the US especially will never do what China did, and the strain we now have spreading may even be different than the one that began there. More transmittable but less virulent hopefully.

I hope this strain is also less transmittable in the warmer weather of spring. The seasonal change could help us more than anything. Fingers crossed.




I didn't realize there were already multiple strains of the virus out. Does the same test kit catch all of the different strains?



Probably yes, but who knows?
Depending on the kits, there were allready lots of false negative results reported.

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Post #: 409
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 12:03:18 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I wouldn't think of ignoring China. That's the only country's that's been most of the way through this thing. To this point, Johns Hopkins and basically every other reporting service I've seen accepts China's numbers. Those numbers are very instructive, IMO. If those numbers are called into question, I'll take due notice. That would be bad. But China's numbers offer the single biggest point of optimism, at this point.

This is one of the reports I've seen. The Australian Broadcasting company has made similar reports. https://theweek.com/speedreads/900488/chinas-coronavirus-recovery-all-fake-whistleblowers-residents-claim

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Post #: 410
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 12:11:14 AM   
Wuffer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I wouldn't think of ignoring China. That's the only country's that's been most of the way through this thing. To this point, Johns Hopkins and basically every other reporting service I've seen accepts China's numbers. Those numbers are very instructive, IMO. If those numbers are called into question, I'll take due notice. That would be bad. But China's numbers offer the single biggest point of optimism, at this point.


Fair deal.


I trust honestly more the data of Germany and there's optimism too, most cases are more or less asymptotic and only found during routine scans. In a lot of hospitals nearly everyone is tested now, as fellow students of me confirmed, even those without the standard symptoms (mainly for insurance reasons).

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Post #: 411
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 12:33:40 AM   
Canoerebel


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John, did you read that story?

I saw it a few days ago and read it. It doesn't question the disease numbers (active, deaths, recovered). It questions claims that Chinese business is back up and running.

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Post #: 412
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 12:44:35 AM   
RangerJoe


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I think that the claims of China's businesses being back up and running is partly so other businesses don't start getting different suppliers, possibly local ones at that. China can't really afford to lose all of that international business.

I just saw where this one school kept the public out for games other than reporters. So it was the teams, officials, and reporters. So it may be happening.

As far as hospital beds, equipment, and staffing goes, I think that the military could be called upon in an emergency. State officials could activate National Guard units or just certain personel if not otherwise deployed.

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Post #: 413
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:07:09 AM   
spence

 

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Apparently the first case of COVID-19 was found in southern Washington (Clark County) last night. The person and all who were in contact with him are in quarantine now but the CCPHS article doesn't really indicate how this particular person became infected. Seattle is 3 hours away though.

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Post #: 414
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:08:14 AM   
Kull


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Alright, so according to at least some we can't believe China or Iran and Italy is...well...Italy, so whose data can we trust? How about South Korea? Second highest reported total, and there shouldn't be any question regarding government transparency or ability to test or the fact that it's definitely NOT an authoritarian society capable of ultra-draconian means. Four days ago, here's what one of our forum members told us about the situation in South Korea:

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

Korea is #2, so on the surface it seems we're screwed, blued and tattoo'd, and you'd better keep all Korean residents (like me) from entering your country.

Below the surface, this is probably the most-tested, most-transparent country regarding this disease. They have drive-through testing stations. You can call a four-digit phone number, find out the closest station, pull up in your car, get a temperature check, answer a few questions, and if they think you're at risk, they'll do a nasal swab (from what I understand), and you'll get the results six hours later. Do you see that anywhere else? Everyone in the 200,000-plus member Shincheonji cult is getting tested, which is why the number of victims jumps about 500 a day here and will for the next week or so as their test results come in. Some buildings require you to wear a mask before entry, so I keep one in my pocket at all times.

My wife's hospital picked up 80 patients from Daegu over the weekend. They cleared out two wings for them. We're still not doing badly in Seoul in terms of numbers, although they've shut down the schools nationwide until March 23. There goes summer vacation. Church services are also being done virtually. We are on half-staffing in the office, which may go to zero percent staffing if we have to.

It's real easy to get a taxi and attendance is down at restaurants and bars, but my local marts have fully stocked shelves. Hoarding is not an issue.

Good luck, y'all.

Cheers,
CB


Clearly South Korea seems to have a good approach, including wide availability of testing. And the response clearly doesn't involve locking everybody in their houses and shutting down all businesses and travel. But as good as this system appears, it is NOT going to stop exponential growth. If 20% or more of all contacts get this disease, then almost 3 weeks in, the disease should be rampant. I found a government site in South Korea which has the results from each day of the outbreak (for example, here is the link to 2/28), so this is reliable. Keep in mind (as CaptBeefheart emphasized), that some of the spikes are due to delays in testing or receiving results. That said, here are the daily numbers showing the increase in total diagnosed infections:

2/18 - 31
2/19 - 58
2/20 - 111
2/21 - 209
2/22 - 436
2/23 - 602
2/24 - 833
2/25 - 893
2/26 - 1261
2/27 - 1766
2/28 - 2022
2/29 - 3150
3/1 - 3526
3/2 - 4212
3/3 - 4812
3/4 - 5328
3/5 - 6088
3/6 - 6593
3/7 - 7134

And here's the daily increase, as a percent of the total. Given over 1000 cases 10 days ago, if Covid-19 grows exponentially, we should see it in the numbers:

2/19 - 87%
2/20 - 91%
2/21 - 88%
2/22 - 109%
2/23 - 38%
2/24 - 38%
2/25 - 7%
2/26 - 41%
2/27 - 40%
2/28 - 14%
2/29 - 56%
3/1 - 12%
3/2 - 19%
3/3 - 14%
3/4 - 11%
3/5 - 14%
3/6 - 8%
3/7 - 8%

And we don't. The case load is growing, sure, but the rate of spread is clearly slowing.

_____________________________


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 415
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:16:45 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
That's good information. It'll be instructive to keep tabs on South Korea's situation.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 416
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:17:41 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Meanwhile: "Democrats are about twice as likely as Republicans to say the coronavirus poses an imminent threat to the United States, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted this week."

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 417
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:37:16 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
The % increase may be slowing per Kull's data but the increase is still 500 odd per day over the last week.

The US government has been anything but candid about the threat posed by COVID-19. Our "natural expert" has only himself to blame for that situation.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 418
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 2:40:04 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Lack of information doesn't seem to be an issue. I suppose folks see it different ways, just as we in here are perceiving it in different ways.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/8/2020 2:41:15 AM >

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 419
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/8/2020 3:42:10 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Meanwhile: "Democrats are about twice as likely as Republicans to say the coronavirus poses an imminent threat to the United States, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted this week."

So much for trying to deal with facts rather than pure conjecture or emotions.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 420
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