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Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/7/2020 4:40:42 PM

sven6345789

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1. investigate units outside the patrol area
-> This one I understand, since it is obvious

but

2. investigate contacts within weapons range

how does that work?

if the first option is on, do you need to click it? sounds redundant to me.

if the first option is off, how does unit behavior change?

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/7/2020 8:39:32 PM

michaelm75au

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Option 2 would be used to keep the patrol with its patrol area, but if a contact comes in range of its weapons (while in the patrol area) it will attempt to investigate it - like a quick out/in

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/7/2020 8:39:49 PM

michaelm75au

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Michael

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/9/2020 11:28:49 PM

marksdoran

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So out of curiosity...

How does the code define "in range" -- are we talking within max book range of the longest ranged weapon or more like within practical range (meaning close enough that hit probability/Pk are some definition of "reasonable")??

If my patrol unit strays out of the box, what criteria are used for my unit to break off and return to the box?? For instance, I can imagine a contact turning and running once my patrol unit moves to intercept...

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Post #: 4

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/10/2020 5:04:17 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

If my patrol unit strays out of the box, what criteria are used for my unit to break off and return to the box??

michaelm75au can give you the code specifics .. but here is my 2 cents.

If the contact is unknown and then becomes an enemy with-in range and you have both boxes checked, the enemy will get chased in the scenario you painted, at least until the enemy gets out of weapons range or the contact is lost, or fuel\weapons exhaustion etc.

This is why often you want to restrict your patrols missions (especially aaw ones) with Prosecution Area limits if you plan on using either or both options, especially in larger scenarios, and especially option 1. Without it you can get unexpected (but technically correct) behavior like a cap flight over the Virginia coast area flying down to Venezuela because some ship or long range radar detected an unknown contact there and you had option 1 checked.

A setup that works well in most cases and cuts down on undesired behavior will have both a patrol area, and a larger prosecution area overlapping defined, with both options checked. This allows your patrols to float around in their assigned patrol area, and investigate\engage anything detected outside it in the larger prosecution area as well, BUT to disengage once they hit the larger box boundary and head back to patrol area or another contact still inside the larger area, while ignoring things outside said larger prosecution area. Takes an extra minute or two of time setting up more ref points, but it's well worth it when you want to put some limits\containment around a patrol while ALSO using the flexibility that option 1 and\or 2 provide.

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Post #: 5

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/10/2020 5:25:00 PM

exsonic01

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I'm also a noob, but I usually turn off both 'chase' check boxes, or only turn on check box for 'chase within missile range' only if it is extremely necessary.

Patrol AI commands planes to go to bogey and check if the target bogey is hostile or not. Then if it is hostile, it attacks. If you turn on those 'chase' check boxes for AAW patrol mission, planes will follow unknown bogeys in their radar, or within their weapon range, regardless of your reference zone or reference points.

Then, your AAW patrol planes will frequently explore through far far distance and some unfortunate ones will end up in the middle of enemy territory, while you were busy with other things. And then you will get mad by unexpected KIA message, and yells "what the hxxx are you doing there? Your patrol zone was over there, not over that line"

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 3/10/2020 5:51:50 PM >

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/10/2020 8:14:34 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

I'm also a noob, but I usually turn off both 'chase' check boxes, or only turn on check box for 'chase within missile range' only if it is extremely necessary.

Patrol AI commands planes to go to bogey and check if the target bogey is hostile or not. Then if it is hostile, it attacks. If you turn on those 'chase' check boxes for AAW patrol mission, planes will follow unknown bogeys in their radar, or within their weapon range, regardless of your reference zone or reference points.

Then, your AAW patrol planes will frequently explore through far far distance and some unfortunate ones will end up in the middle of enemy territory, while you were busy with other things. And then you will get mad by unexpected KIA message, and yells "what the hxxx are you doing there? Your patrol zone was over there, not over that line"

Yup what you describe is exactly the problem that setting up Prosecution Areas for the patrol mission solve, with them you don't get AAW flights ending up all over the map, try it out. I know back in the 114.x and before days there was a bug or two with them but they got addressed and since then they've worked well preventing exactly what you and I have described.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/11/2020 1:24:46 AM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75
Yup what you describe is exactly the problem that setting up Prosecution Areas for the patrol mission solve, with them you don't get AAW flights ending up all over the map, try it out. I know back in the 114.x and before days there was a bug or two with them but they got addressed and since then they've worked well preventing exactly what you and I have described.

I'm just mostly playing tutorial mission as a noob so I can't comment further with any certainty and experience.

But, during last mission of air tutorial, I saw F15s and 16s (with two chase check boxes checked) reached deep into Syrian side (like north of Lebanon and central Syria) to check if the bogey in front of them is Syrian or not. They engaged Migs and Sukhois too. Feels like they were hopping bogey to bogey (mostly within amraam range), just like police car searches for wanted guy in the random slow-moving vehicles.

But maybe my impression might be wrong, because I was busy to micromanage and test stealth fighters so could't check others closely. And I just let F15s and 16s freely play with what they have.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/11/2020 6:59:10 PM

marksdoran

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quote:

A setup that works well in most cases and cuts down on undesired behavior will have both a patrol area, and a larger prosecution area overlapping defined, with both options checked. This allows your patrols to float around in their assigned patrol area, and investigate\engage anything detected outside it in the larger prosecution area as well, BUT to disengage once they hit the larger box boundary and head back to patrol area or another contact still inside the larger area, while ignoring things outside said larger prosecution area. Takes an extra minute or two of time setting up more ref points, but it's well worth it when you want to put some limits\containment around a patrol while ALSO using the flexibility that option 1 and\or 2 provide.

That makes perfect sense. And in fact to expand on the concept it occurs to me that what you really might want is concentric areas where the overlap is tilted such that the bulk of the prosecution area outside the patrol area is shifted along the expected threat axis (if there is one).

It seems to me that for disciplined air CAP type jobs this may be a preferred best-known-method for setting up such missions; which is to say better than using the check boxes which manifestly are generating questions (witness this thread ;))...well, maybe.

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.


 expected threat
        ^
        |

-----------------
|               |
|               |
| |-----------| |
| |           | |
| |           | |
-----------------

(in reply to KnightHawk75)

Post #: 9

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/12/2020 6:18:51 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marksdoran

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.
 expected threat
        ^
        |

-----------------
|               |
|               |
| |-----------| |
| |           | |
| |           | |
-----------------

Precisely.

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Post #: 10

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/12/2020 7:06:11 PM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75
quote:

ORIGINAL: marksdoran

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.
 expected threat
        ^
        |

-----------------
|               |
|               |
| |-----------| |
| |           | |
| |           | |
-----------------
Precisely.

May I ask how to set up Prosecution Areas? Like you wrote, I think the reason why my patrols gone weird is absence of Prosecution Areas. How can I set this?

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/12/2020 7:54:41 PM

thewood1

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There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/12/2020 8:50:25 PM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

Aha, I got it, thanks

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/13/2020 12:42:22 AM

thewood1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

Aha, I got it, thanks

I would have thought that would be the first you would do.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/13/2020 1:21:48 AM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I would have thought that would be the first you would do.

You mean, prosecution zone? Or read manual or play tutorial? I'm playing tutorials and I didn't even know there was a prosecution zone. I just started playing this game, like from last week. There are too much things to read and too many buttons to check and I just don't have enough time to learn that fast so... Manual is so big, that I couldn't finish them all, and even if I read them all, I would forget. Fortunately, I found some good YT channels thanks to some suggestions here, so I'm checking them part by part. I guess I'm still learning by asking questions and checking or trying one by one. In CMO point of view, I'm only a toddler and I wish I could try LUA scripting and scenario design some day.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 3/13/2020 1:23:50 AM >

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/13/2020 10:26:22 AM

thewood1

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You don't have to read everything, but its a good idea to at least browse the manual. Adobe has a very good search function for PDFs, as do most PDF readers. A simple search would have answered your question.

My point is you are asking an awful lot of questions, which is cool. But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 1:02:51 AM

marksdoran

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

You don't have to read everything, but its a good idea to at least browse the manual. Adobe has a very good search function for PDFs, as do most PDF readers. A simple search would have answered your question.

My point is you are asking an awful lot of questions, which is cool. But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time.

You are right of course that the manual is a useful resource and PDF searching is also useful. In this particular case though "simple search" isn't really possible. The information about prosecution zones is scattered in a non-obvious ordering and placement through the text. Does it really make sense that some of the most descriptive text for this is in a release note for an ancient version tucked away in a back corner??

I know (being a dev myself) that sometimes it is hard to get documentation the love it deserves though ;)

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 1:40:44 AM

thewood1

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Yes, if you just hit search a couple times, you find everything you need. Its exactly how I learned about it.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 1:43:06 AM

thewood1

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So here is hit #2 on page 191-192 in the manual...

"To create a patrol mission:
1. Create/select at least three reference points on the map to
define the patrol area.
Command Modern Operations
192
2. Create a mission, select the patrol mission class and types from
dropdowns, type in a name and click the OK button which will
open the mission editor.
3. A shaded box is shown on the map depicting the patrol area.
A folded box or bow-tie shape is the result of the Reference
Points not being placed sequentially around the perimeter of
the desired area. It is best to use the right-control-click Define
Area function as it will drop four reference points in the
correct order.
4. If desired, create a prosecution area. Create/select a second
set of reference points, press the �prosecution area� tab, and
add/remove them as one would for a normal patrol area. In
order for the prosecution area to work, �Investigate Contacts
Outside Patrol Area� must be checked."

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 1:43:47 AM

thewood1

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on Page 192 here is the second set of hits...

"8. Set �Investigate Contacts Outside Patrol Area� If checked,
the units assigned to the mission will leave the patrol area to
investigate/identify nearby contacts. If unchecked they will
restrict their activities only to their defined area. If checked
with the mission containing a prosecution area, the units will
only investigate contacts inside said prosecution area."

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 1:46:42 AM

thewood1

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And on page 298...the announcement of prosecution zones and what they are in the patch note index.

"Prosecution areas (additional zones that patrolling units will
not enter normally, but will pursue contacts in) added as an
option to patrol missions. Prosecution areas act as a way to
restrain patrolling units. For example, with a prosecution area,
a patrolling aircraft neither breaks away from its scheduled
patrol to investigate a contact far away from the combat area
nor tries to follow retreating enemy fighters all the way back
to airfields with known SAM batteries around them."

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 2:04:21 AM

thewood1

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"Does it really make sense that some of the most descriptive text for this is in a release note for an ancient version tucked away in a back corner?"

That is completely wrong. As shown above, there is a section on prosecution zones right in the mission building section, numbered 7. The only mention of it prior to that is the Lua section only as a reference. Even if I didn't use search, its right where it should be. The supposed corner its squirreled away in is not where you would first encounter prosecution zone description. I suspect you didn't really look either.

The devs and some parts of the community have put a HUGE amount of effort in indirectly and directly helping document the game enough that players who actually want to learn the game, and not just jump in and play the game and get frustrated, can do it. When they started putting the effort to enhance the documentation and tutorials, I actually pushed on shifting resources to it. My reasoning was that the people who complain about the documentation are the same people that make little to no effort to use it to its advantage. Are the documents, videos, and tutorials perfect? No, they can always be better. New players should always be welcome to ask questions. But my personal expectation is that will:

1) A least look at the manual and use it as a starting point if they question something.
2) Read the "New Players" thread
3) Watch a couple of the introductory videos
4) Try a few of the tutorials

There is so much available to at least start familiarizing yourself with the game that coming in with multiple questions that could have been answered through the above resources is, as I said, wasting people's time. Especially when you start sucking the devs into the conversation.

So please explain to me why the description of prosecution zones is out of order and scattered? And also explain that the expectation should not be for someone to actually reference the resources that have taken countless hours of the devs' and communities' time to assemble.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 6:31:05 AM

exsonic01

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You don't need to be this aggressive, and this topic doesn't need to be even bother anyone. I never meant to annoy someone.

Maybe it was my mistake to ask question about prosecution zone. I only followed the first two folder in air tutorials (air battle and strike tutorial over Israel and Africa) and I couldn't find the prosecution zone explanation, or maybe I missed it from tutorial. For some reason, at that right moment of thinking about AAW patrol and reading this post, I just forget to check the manual. I was so occupied to other contents and digesting so many information about this game so just couldn't catch what I was doing. I already self-searched a lot of info from manual and from this forum. But obviously I did mistake about this part, just forget to check manual. So, I'm sorry. Are you satisfied?

Speaking of manual, I read part by part just like you wrote and this is not a first time I play this kind of game. Like I wrote I already searched for things from manual and this forum just like I did for all other wargames I played. Combat Mission John Tiller Campaigns Graviteam Close Combat Flashpoint Campaigns Armored Brigade Command Ops 2 Steel Beasts Pro... and I can list more. But obviously air and naval games are fresh to me so I'm experiencing a steep learning curve.

You don't need to be show such noobhating attitude. I know it was too easy question, but anyone can do same mistakes especially beginners for games like this. And honestly, I don't think such "too easy question" is mistake or wrong doing. It is possible to happen. If you don't like it, then you don't need to answer in open forum. Some other player will answer. You don't need to lecture someone in front of all others in humiliating fashion or blaming tone, you could PM me to not to ask too easy question if you have different idea. Or, you could choose more friendly and more nice and simple answer of "check manual, search for it, it is useful to prevent such situation" Or something like that.

Honestly, I never get such kind of reaction to this kind of mistakenly easy question, and I never answered like this to other beginner's so easy questions. I'm honest, I never wrote like "But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time." to any beginner's questions. I usually choose much simple short and friendly answer like "check manual, especially this part, that will help". Why do you bother if you think this is waste of time? You could just ignore. Are you a some sort of monitoring person of this forum? Then you could write more friendly to me. Isn't it?

I will stop posting about this one. thewood1, if you want to continue this issue, PM me.

And for all other people if anyone annoyed by my "too easy" questions and all other people in this thread, I apologize. But I will not stop asking questions. Maybe my questions will be better as I get more experience. But I do believe 'easy questions' are not wrong, and even if they look silly, it would be better to show more friendly approach.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 3/14/2020 6:48:00 AM >

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 11:17:07 AM

thewood1

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"easy" questions are not wrong or bad or whatever. But they a waste of energy if you yourself don't take advantage of what you have right in front of you. You said specifically that you didn't see it I the manual. I pointed out how its right there. Then someone else comes in with misinformation and says its too hard to find in the manual. Then, as an example, I showed exactly where they were and even in the right sections.

If you come in and ask a couple "easy" questions, I don't think its a bid deal. But you just started playing the game and the questions you are asking sure make it look like you don't even attempt to answer questions yourself. My initial comment was to take your time, use the resources available to you, and then ask questions. But if you push and keep wanting devs and other people to do your work for, I'll push back too.

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 8:00:09 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

And for all other people if anyone annoyed by my "too easy" questions and all other people in this thread, I apologize. But I will not stop asking questions. Maybe my questions will be better as I get more experience. But I do believe 'easy questions' are not wrong, and even if they look silly, it would be better to show more friendly approach.

I was not annoyed at all, and see no reason for anyone to apologize, I hope in the end though you and marksdoran (and anyone else reading the thread) got the information needed to use\setup Prosecution Areas (and other options) and it helps enhances your game play experience, and that if you have further questions\clarifications you ask them.

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Post #: 25

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 11:38:01 PM

exsonic01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
"easy" questions are not wrong or bad or whatever. But they a waste of energy if you yourself don't take advantage of what you have right in front of you.

You can just ignore, no one force you to answer. Then it will not be a waste of energy.

quote:

You said specifically that you didn't see it I the manual. I pointed out how its right there. Then someone else comes in with misinformation and says its too hard to find in the manual. Then, as an example, I showed exactly where they were and even in the right sections.

I told you that was mistake. I forget to check the manual. It just happened once in this forum. That is all. All you could write was just "check the manual, search for that keyword" nothing more. Nothing justifies your aggressive sentences like:

quote:

I would have thought that would be the first you would do.

quote:

But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time.

Any sane person who reads this comments would think this person wants to annoy someone and wants to make "people's court" in this forum. And I point out there is no reason to "make an example" in forum in front of all others just like some catholic school housemaster or hallway patrol. Sometimes we forget, we do a mistake. You don't need to poke it all around the forum. You could wrote more nice and short, or you could PM me about it.

quote:

But if you push and keep wanting devs and other people to do your work for, I'll push back too.

Again, no one, including devs, are forced to answer all questions, 100%. It would be great if anyone answers me, but I don't mind if no one answers me. I know my question was silly, so I don't care if no one answers. Did I ever complain about no one answers my questions in any place? No.
It is learning process. I would find myself the answer like you wrote, or someone will get the answer far later and I figure out in the future. But I don't push anyone, which includes you, to 100% answer my questions within an hour or something like that. Let's stop this. Right here. Right now.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 3/14/2020 11:39:40 PM >

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 11:53:50 PM

thewood1

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So your approach is always let someone else do the work for you. At least you're transparent about it.

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Post #: 27

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/14/2020 11:56:15 PM

DWReese

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If you ever need an answer to any question I will be glad to help you. I am here all of the time, and I have no problem assisting anyone. No question is silly, or stupid. Feel free to send me a private message and I will help you. I usually write very detailed responses that I am sure will sufficiently answer your question. If not, send me another and I'll keep answering until you completely understand.

I don't mind helping you, or anyone else, at all.

Doug

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RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/15/2020 12:56:18 AM

marksdoran

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
That is completely wrong.

Hmm, well you do answer a lot of questions around here providing a lot of useful information; even if sometimes it descends into ruffled feathers. So given that let me just say that with respect, I disagree.

The fact that you quoted several sections of the manual really puts the lie to your assertion. The first quote doesn't explain what a prosecution area is. You can maybe infer it from the second but it's not until the third piece you quoted, from page 298, labeled Version 1.04 in a containing section labeled "Command Update History" wherein the preamble section says "...much of this will not be of any concern", that you get a reasonably digestible description of what a prosecution zone is that provides more clue on why you might want to use one.

I do technical docs for software as part of my job (in part) and that I think entitles me to an opinion on this topic. I also understand that reasonable people can disagree. Your disagreement does not however invalidate my perception. I'd invite you to consider the view from my shoes -- I'd love to do that over a beer...I bet we'd have a lot of common ground to talk about...sadly the internet doesn't facilitate that very well.

So. My point is not to "prove you wrong or evil" or any such nonsense. Really what I'm trying to point out that the case for people being best served by starting with the documentation would be stronger if it were, as an example in this case specifically, a little better organized.

And I don't mean to be an empty critic: there's enough info in this thread to make a better manual section for patrol zones. Send me the source for the relevant mission editor section and I'll draft something up as a proposed replacement (free and with no strings).

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Post #: 29

RE: Question regarding Patrol Missions - 3/15/2020 1:06:59 AM

thewood1

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The explanation is right there in black and white. In the section you would expect. It also doesn't stop you from reading further down. The manual isn't there just to read, but to search also. So even I agreed with your assertion, a couple more simple clicks on the search bar in the PDF would have given you the answer.

The point is...it is actually in the manual. If someone won't deign themselves to do a little homework for themselves and depend on asking find-able questions in the forum, they aren't going to last long in this game. Might was well catch that up front.

(in reply to marksdoran)

Post #: 30