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RE: OT: Corona virus

 
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RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 1:46:44 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
Let's talk about testing. If you like polemic-free information (and hard stats), check out the Wikipedia page on Covid-19 testing. There are quite a few different tests out there, and the reliability varies.

For those interested in the US, we are currently #7 in the world in terms of "number of tests performed", and may be higher. The first table in the attachment is at the Wikipedia link, and you can sort it by totals, "as-of" date, and "per million" (the favorite statistic for those who want to play politics with this as it lists the US 4th from the bottom).

The second graph is important since it shows the counts ever since the CDC altered it's testing requirements by delegating responsibility to the state and local public health agencies. As more kits enter the pipeline, you'll start to see the testing numbers jump, simply because the bottleneck has been removed.

Speaking of which, let's consider South Korea. They certainly made rapid progress in the testing area, and that does appear to be a major contributing factor in their apparent (or at least relative) success. But why? Well, I'm not a fan of traditional media (here's the link to the whole story), but this is really important to know, and I haven't seen this information anywhere else:

quote:

An outbreak of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome in 2015 killed 38 people in South Korea, with a lack of kits to test for the MERS pathogen meaning infected patients went from hospital to hospital seeking help, spreading the virus widely. Afterward, the country created a system to allow rapid approval of testing kits for viruses which have the potential to cause pandemics.

When the novel coronavirus emerged, that system allowed regulators to collaborate quickly with local biotech companies and researchers to develop testing kits based on a genetic sequence of the virus released by China in mid-January. Firms were then granted accreditation to make and sell the kits within weeks --a process that usually takes a year.

In a short space of time, South Korea has managed to test more than 140,000 people for the novel coronavirus, using kits with sensitivity rates of over 95%, according to the director of the Korean Society for Laboratory Medicine.


That's instructive. They had a bad experience with a deadly infectious disease, studied what went wrong, and implemented a system to respond better in the future. And we are seeing the fruits of that approach today.

Which could very well be the silver lining in this whole Covid-19 situation. There are going to be lots of lessons learned in the days, weeks, and months to come, and those *should* allow our societies to perform better the next time - and there WILL BE a "next time" - something like this arises.

Because if the next contagious new disease has mortality rates more in keeping with the Black Death, at least now we'll know what to do and when to do it, without having to lose a third of the world's population.




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Post #: 571
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:03:06 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

NBA just suspended the season. Coming next: March Madness, Baseball, NHL? If they shut down the Premier League, this is one Liverpool fan that will KNOW the gods hate us....



Life goes on day after day
Hearts torn in every way
So ferry 'cross the Mersey
'Cause this land's the place I love
And here I'll stay

+1
If we stop joking, it means the virus has won
The attitude in some recent posts reminds me of that during the anthrax scare after 9/11.

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Post #: 572
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:06:52 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
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I'am more concerned about the "CURES" than I'am the disease.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/12/2020 2:07:47 PM >


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Post #: 573
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:10:55 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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How Tom Hanks and wife Rita Wilson mingled with fans, visited Bondi Beach, the Opera House and went on morning breakfast show Today - before they tested positive for the coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8102929/Tom-Hanks-Rita-Wilson-visited-Bondi-Beach-Opera-House-positive-coronavirus-test.html





“Mama always said, dying was a part of life." - Forrest Gump

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Post #: 574
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:25:11 PM   
Zorch

 

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

How Tom Hanks and wife Rita Wilson mingled with fans, visited Bondi Beach, the Opera House and went on morning breakfast show Today - before they tested positive for the coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8102929/Tom-Hanks-Rita-Wilson-visited-Bondi-Beach-Opera-House-positive-coronavirus-test.html


“Mama always said, dying was a part of life." - Forrest Gump

He has experience in quarantine.




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Post #: 575
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:25:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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In order to determine what is worth doing, I think you have to weight the potential cost. I think the potential numbers and effects without major mitigation are well summarized here:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/10/simple-math-alarming-answers-covid-19/

The projections from epidemiologists are that without mitigation, 40-70% of the population will be infected. If you look at hospital beds running out within the first month of significant levels of infection, that means that the fatality rate could easily rise to between 5-10%. For a population of 330 million, the result would be that by the time this runs its course without any mitigation, millions would be dead. We're talking way more casualties than we suffered in all the wars of the 20th century. Now extend this across the world and the cost is beyond staggering, likely worse than the Spanish Flu.

For me, this means that against this unseen enemy, we need at least a WWII level of effort across the world and it starts in our own countries. This is not something we can wish away and if we don't take extreme measures and change our assumptions and how we deal with the world until this war is won, we will be the ones on the losing side. I think there is cause for hope given that we have seen free societies able to slow the spread, but we have been thinking half-measures would suffice and life could continue mostly as before and now have a lot of catching up to do. Until we do catch up (if we have the political and civil will at all levels of government and the citizenry) it will get very bad.

This will not really stop until we have a vaccine and we don't even know for sure that a vaccine is possible at this point, we just hope it is. There has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine and these types of viruses mutate very quickly, so it may be a moving target. This argues even more for very strong mitigation and massive efforts to find good therapies. Every country around the world will become a hotspot in the meantime, capable of spreading cases further. I think there is still time to avoid the absolute worst outcome, but it's still going to get very bad and at this point I'd guess it will be years before outbreaks stop popping up in various places around the world given the time it will take for mass vaccinations to spread to even the poorest countries.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about all this and it turns out that we can get control of this in a month or two without that level of effort, but so far I've been feeling a lot like Cassandra which is not comforting.

Regards,

- Erik



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Post #: 576
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:30:31 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Good interview on COVID-19:

https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts

Here is a link to the PODcast website with the entire interview. Some of it goes into other infectious diseases, but the current corona virus outbreak is the main topic. The whole thing is very worthwhile.

http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/michael-osterholm


Very nice, thank you. I would like to point out about the tick borne diseases, chickens like wood ticks. Ticks also don't like the smell of garlic. Neither do mosquitoes.

A park ranger (a pretty blonde, no less) told me that to get rid of ticks, put some dry ice down on canvas. The ticks would be attracted to the gas given off, touch the dry ice, and freeze.

As far as the chronic wasting disease in deer, I wonder if the wolves would be affected by it. They probably would go after the sick deer even before they show symptoms.

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Post #: 577
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:45:20 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If you look at hospital beds running out within the first month of significant levels of infection, that means that the fatality rate could easily rise to between 5-10%. For a population of 330 million, the result would be that by the time this runs its course without any mitigation, millions would be dead.


Ummm, no. Every single Health Agency agrees that from a mortality perspective, the ones at risk are over age 60 AND with "underlying conditions". And even for them it's not 100%. Just yesterday, MakeeLearn gave us this extremely relevant post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

According to Italy's national health institute, the average age of those who have died was 81, and many of the deceased had preexisting health conditions. Only one in five Coronavirus patients is between 19 and 50 years old, making the older population significantly more impacted by the virus in Italy. "

"A study conducted last month from the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention showed that the virus most seriously affected older people with preexisting health problems, which suggests a person's chances of dying from the disease increase with age."




So is this thing dangerous? Yes, but not for everyone.

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Post #: 578
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 2:58:33 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
Facts and data are good, so here's the 2018 Census breakdown of the US population by age group. So yes, there are millions in the purely age-related category. But to make that relevant, you'd need to know how many have the "underlying conditions". Because while the MakeeLearn chart is only age-related, we KNOW the vast majority had something else going on.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 579
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 3:06:43 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
I posted a few days back from a Reuters poll that found a marked different in how this is perceived among those aligned with political parties. That may be due to the fact that those in urban areas tend to align with one party and are also in a "hotter" environment for the virus spread. It's more of a clear and present danger to them.

I heard on a radio news program yesterday that a virus back in 2009 (H1N1, I think) resulted in about 14,000 deaths in the USA; and that more there were more than 1k deaths before the President declared a national emergency. There were many different factors involved, but its interesting that, to date, coronavirus has resulted in less than 40 deaths in the USA.

One of the major differences, of course, is that we in the US could see what was happening in China/Asia and then Middle East/Europe, got kind of rattled, and then saw it arrive here, and got really rattled.

But thus far, despite the increase in cases, it still doesn't appear (to me) to be apocalyptic. It seems likely that our experience should somewhat mimic that of China, or not be wildly dissimilar. That would be wonderful in comparison to the cataclysmic projections now proliferating. 5k, 10k, 15k mortalities would be nothing in comparison to the million+-estimates circulating publicly (and finding traction among some smart folks here).

My own guess is that in two or three weeks, the news will be good and we'll be getting back to normal.

I'm an optimist without credentials.




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Post #: 580
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 3:09:48 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Erik can say for sure, but I think he meant the overall mortality rate would be higher than otherwise if/when the health care system is overwhelmed, and that is what the experts have said IIRC. That's the news coming from Italy, too.

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Post #: 581
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 3:36:43 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Went to Costco yesterday to pick up the coupon items I wanted. On the way by that isle I noticed a sign - and the lack of stock - indicating they were completely out of toilet paper.

I think after production is adjusted to account for the current run on certain things, like TP, there are going to be some long draw-down of personal stockpiles of certain goods.


I did my weekly run through Publix this AM - they had plenty of toilet paper, and some brands were on sale. Clorox bleach was also on sale. I got both.


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Post #: 582
RE: OT: Corona virus - Direct Impact - 3/12/2020 3:39:20 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
Am I the first ? Here ?

At Workplace Toronto Area (Canada) - Came into 'potential contact' with Primary COVID 19 confirmed - case; person was an international traveler.

Public Heath Department and Employer: have asked / insisted that all workers on that particular office floor Self Quarantine for 14 days.

No concerns in this for me - I feel properly morally obligated to follow "the doctors orders"

Risk of infection deemed "low to moderate" as I did not interact directly with person - only same floor area of office tower.

Working from home - day 6 of self quarantine. Minimizing contact with Spouse and daughters.

Public Health assures me in direct conversations chance of infecting my family very low - especially as I have not demonstrated any symptoms. Fever, progressive cough, progressive sinus, etc.

Lots of hand washing. Lots of "bleach wipes door handles and light switches".

Sleeping on couch in basement.

Positive Note: was able to get some solid hours (stolen from work / family time) into WITPAE and successfully conquered the Marianas earlier than ever before due to much stronger attention to details : (i) troop preparation (ii) raids by my own early version of TF58 (iii) proper bombardment and (iv) proper mine sweeping... albiet against the AI - Hard - on Beta patch



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 3/12/2020 3:40:08 PM >


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Post #: 583
RE: OT: Corona virus - Direct Impact - 3/12/2020 3:43:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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So at least something good has come out of your quarantine . . .

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child


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Post #: 584
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 3:51:19 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

I'am more concerned about the "CURES" than I'am the disease.


quote from Descartes: "I'am what I'am"

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Post #: 585
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 3:52:58 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

How Tom Hanks and wife Rita Wilson mingled with fans, visited Bondi Beach, the Opera House and went on morning breakfast show Today - before they tested positive for the coronavirus

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8102929/Tom-Hanks-Rita-Wilson-visited-Bondi-Beach-Opera-House-positive-coronavirus-test.html


“Mama always said, dying was a part of life." - Forrest Gump

He has experience in quarantine.





Are you saying his castaway friend "Wilson" represented his wife Rita?

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Post #: 586
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:03:18 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Good interview on COVID-19:

https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts

Here is a link to the PODcast website with the entire interview. Some of it goes into other infectious diseases, but the current corona virus outbreak is the main topic. The whole thing is very worthwhile.

http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/michael-osterholm


Very nice, thank you. I would like to point out about the tick borne diseases, chickens like wood ticks. Ticks also don't like the smell of garlic. Neither do mosquitoes.




Neither do deer (with their ticks) or any other type of lily, onions, scallions and chives etc. That's a garden tip for those with deer problems, mix in some arum family members.


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Post #: 587
RE: OT: Corona virus - Direct Impact - 3/12/2020 4:04:00 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Am I the first ? Here ?

At Workplace Toronto Area (Canada) - Came into 'potential contact' with Primary COVID 19 confirmed - case; person was an international traveler.

Public Heath Department and Employer: have asked / insisted that all workers on that particular office floor Self Quarantine for 14 days.

No concerns in this for me - I feel properly morally obligated to follow "the doctors orders"

Risk of infection deemed "low to moderate" as I did not interact directly with person - only same floor area of office tower.

Working from home - day 6 of self quarantine. Minimizing contact with Spouse and daughters.

Public Health assures me in direct conversations chance of infecting my family very low - especially as I have not demonstrated any symptoms. Fever, progressive cough, progressive sinus, etc.

Lots of hand washing. Lots of "bleach wipes door handles and light switches".

Sleeping on couch in basement.

Positive Note: was able to get some solid hours (stolen from work / family time) into WITPAE and successfully conquered the Marianas earlier than ever before due to much stronger attention to details : (i) troop preparation (ii) raids by my own early version of TF58 (iii) proper bombardment and (iv) proper mine sweeping... albiet against the AI - Hard - on Beta patch




Good luck dude....GP

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Post #: 588
RE: OT: Corona virus - Direct Impact - 3/12/2020 4:04:05 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Sleeping on couch in basement.


And not at your spouses direction! Or, well, at least not for the "usual reasons".

quote:

Positive Note: was able to get some solid hours (stolen from work / family time) into WITPAE and successfully conquered the Marianas earlier than ever before due to much stronger attention to details : (i) troop preparation (ii) raids by my own early version of TF58 (iii) proper bombardment and (iv) proper mine sweeping... albiet against the AI - Hard - on Beta patch


The entire world economy might crash, but computer game stocks should be a real good investment!

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Post #: 589
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:05:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Erik can say for sure, but I think he meant the overall mortality rate would be higher than otherwise if/when the health care system is overwhelmed, and that is what the experts have said IIRC. That's the news coming from Italy, too.


Yes, that was exactly my point - that the mortality rates we've seen so far can easily rise if not enough hospital beds are available for those who need them. With good hospital care, it's mostly only the elderly or chronically ill who are dying, but there are many others who are being hospitalized. If a smaller percentage can access good hospital care while sick, their chance of a good outcome will decrease.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC




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Post #: 590
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:14:37 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The entire population of the planet will eventually be exposed.

The only madness is thinking anyone one of us can hide from it.

I, like most people, might be able to stretch my stockpiles to last a month.

Only the survivalists we, as a society, have been making fun of for years, have stockpiled the resources necessary to survive the shut down of the distribution of goods for any lengthy duration.

Shutting down the distribution of goods is the quickest way possible to bring about the zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, we need a food production and distribution plan now for implementation by summer. It should include migrant workers who plant and harvest much of our produce. Canneries and frozen food producers might have to up their production. Those in the know can work out how to integrate free market decisions with minimum requirements for the population.

But it needs to be coordinated by czars who have the macro picture of the country's needs and transportation availability. Any excess would be available for export. We can't afford to have production sit in remote warehouses or spoiling in the field.



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Post #: 591
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:14:52 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

I'am more concerned about the "CURES" than I'am the disease.


quote from Descartes: "I'am what I'am"


Descartes?





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 592
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:17:57 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Popeye's a yam.

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Post #: 593
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:21:44 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

I'am more concerned about the "CURES" than I'am the disease.


quote from Descartes: "I'am what I'am"

Is that Iambic Pentameter? You're a secret poet laureate of this forum?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 594
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:24:09 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

I'am more concerned about the "CURES" than I'am the disease.


quote from Descartes: "I'am what I'am"



Descartes?!




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 595
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:26:54 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
From Woodrow Wilson Woodpecker, a haiku

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_IDGrKZ0Rs

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Post #: 596
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:29:24 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Erik can say for sure, but I think he meant the overall mortality rate would be higher than otherwise if/when the health care system is overwhelmed, and that is what the experts have said IIRC. That's the news coming from Italy, too.


Yes, that was exactly my point - that the mortality rates we've seen so far can easily rise if not enough hospital beds are available for those who need them. With good hospital care, it's mostly only the elderly or chronically ill who are dying, but there are many others who are being hospitalized. If a smaller percentage can access good hospital care while sick, their chance of a good outcome will decrease.

Regards,

- Erik


One of the Public Health doctors being interviewed on a news channel mentioned that Doctors would then be forced into brutal choices. If there are three people needing a ventilator to keep them alive and only one is available, which do you choose? I have already accepted that, at my age, I would not likely be one of the chosen so my will already says "no heroic measures" and my NOK know that. Anything to make their and the physicians decision easier.


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Post #: 597
RE: OT: Corona virus - Direct Impact - 3/12/2020 4:36:54 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Am I the first ? Here ?

At Workplace Toronto Area (Canada) - Came into 'potential contact' with Primary COVID 19 confirmed - case; person was an international traveler.

Public Heath Department and Employer: have asked / insisted that all workers on that particular office floor Self Quarantine for 14 days.

No concerns in this for me - I feel properly morally obligated to follow "the doctors orders"

Risk of infection deemed "low to moderate" as I did not interact directly with person - only same floor area of office tower.

Working from home - day 6 of self quarantine. Minimizing contact with Spouse and daughters.

Public Health assures me in direct conversations chance of infecting my family very low - especially as I have not demonstrated any symptoms. Fever, progressive cough, progressive sinus, etc.

Lots of hand washing. Lots of "bleach wipes door handles and light switches".

Sleeping on couch in basement.

Positive Note: was able to get some solid hours (stolen from work / family time) into WITPAE and successfully conquered the Marianas earlier than ever before due to much stronger attention to details : (i) troop preparation (ii) raids by my own early version of TF58 (iii) proper bombardment and (iv) proper mine sweeping... albiet against the AI - Hard - on Beta patch






LOCKDOWN THE FORUM!!!

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Post #: 598
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:38:05 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
SH: "It's a hoax, I tell you". AJ on Hanks and Wilson: "This whole thing is being staged by the DNC, they're using actors"

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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 599
RE: OT: Corona virus - 3/12/2020 4:44:52 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
H1N1 in 2009: In America, 60,000,000 infected; 300,000 hospitalized; 14,000 dead.

Hospitals not overwhelmed; medicines not out of stock; no runs on supplies; no travel restrictions imposed (for months, at least).

I didn't even remember H1N1 until I looked it up, prodded by a discussion I heard on the radio yesterday.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 600
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