Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

From Russia with Love I believe?

(INP!!!)

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Telemecus, Axis Supreme Commander
The Tambov pocket is back again, they are even forcing the retreats back to the city of Tambov. So breaking out and slowly retreating is no longer an option it has to be stand hard or run. It is 1942, so CVs have gone up

On Tambov the options are
- RUN: We will lose the equivalent of an infantry division, the French volunteers, a security regiment and the Gross Deutchsland regiment. GD will come back anyway to at least base 95 morale in 1942 and upgrade to a division, so our only permanent losses are the manpower and equipment. The infantry are all ToE 50% or below and at or below national morale. So yes not great to lose - but if we write them off it would still be a quite typical Axis blizzard
- RESCUE AND FIGHT HARD:There are a few CV2s and then a CV4 but with a cavalry corps in the way. We have lots of infantry and also two motorised divisions at Voronezh. With SUs, ground support and some thought we probably could break back in. However the units in Tambov will only be able to move one hex west and our Soviet opponents have shown they can create an eastwards retreat. Assuming we do not want to fill Tambov with the security regiment and HQs we should expect them to retreat back into Tambov every turn. So a rescue only makes sense if we continue to do this every turn - and that means we have to concentrate in the area faster than they do. It does mean we are playing to the Soviets tune - although time is now more in our hands. In addition they still have lots of cavalry closing in from north of their and we are very weak there.

Lictuel - glad to see you back - and sorry stilla big decision for you to make on fight or run for the Tambov units!

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Telemecus, Axis Supreme Commander
Spent last night looking at the Tambov pocket and considering our options.

First of all here are the units that are in danger of being lost with the men and equipment they retain

1st Rgt 134 Infantry 1278 men 11 guns 8 vehicles
2nd Rgt 134 Infantry 850 men 15 guns 8 vehicles
3rd Rgt 45 Infantry 2912 men 31 guns 24 vehicles
French Volunteers 1598 men 13 guns 9 vehicles
1st Rgt 444 Security 1440 men 12 guns 5 vehicles
GD regt 4566 men 44 guns 272 Vehicles 6 AFVs

In total I make this to be 12354 men 126 guns 326 vehicles 6 AFVs - in short about the equivalent of a reduced division.

Interestingly last turn these units lost 2000 men being forced to retreat back into the Tambov pocket - and took 700 Soviets with them doing it. Clearly if we are going to lose the men in the pocket anyway then taking as many Soviets with them is the way to do it. Even if we continue to break into the pocket and they continue to force them to retreat back into it every turn, eventually they will lose as many men as they would have done from surrendering (although with the Soviet casualties too) - and will probably rout or shatter some time instead of retreat.

In terms of formations all these units will return and by the start of the summer campaign be at the same morale and experience as they would have been. Gross Deutschland regiment will have to take in all the recruits for becoming a division anyway by then. They will be absent for the mud periods (when they will probably not be used anyway) and for the remainder of the blizzard (which they are requiring rescue from rather than helping in). There is no special reason why we need to rescue these units over and above the men and material they contain.

The other side of the equation is how much we are losing in rescuing the units. Last turn I estimate we lost between 1,000 and 2,000 more men than we would have done because of rescuing the units in the pocket - although the Soviets also had more losses. Any rescue this turn would likely need more units and include more losses. We would need to counter attack and take back hexes from the cavalry pincers to the north and south of the pocket to make sure the rescuers do not become part of a bigger pocket. And concentrate many more units there.

So by my reckoning there is no longer a decisive reason to rescue or not rescue the units remaining in the pocket. The men and material left to be saved is not very substantial and much of it would be lost in a few turns of fighting to escape anyway. On the other hand we are losing more men and material in other units fighting to save them. So personally I would be quite comfortable with the decision to fight on to rescue them, or to abandon them. There are indeed several options in between - for example breaking them out of isolation this turn or more turns just so they die taking as many with them before they surrender/rout/shatter etc.

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Crackaces, Axis North Commander
Hmmm the Wiki entry will not look too good for us J [Radio speech to isolated units] “We have looked at the CV of all the units in the Tambov pocket and the risks of saving all you 1’s & O’s from torture and starvation are not worth it. Therefore we have decided to allow the Soviets to crush you where you will be recycled ..”

Of course after the war we will blame Timmy … J

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
New orders have been issued. For immediate execution.

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ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
New orders have been issued. For immediate execution.

But this can't be!!! I saw Colonel Hessler die when the fuel drum rolled under his tank at the American fuel depot!!!

The whole thing must have been faked by the NKVD to cover up his defection.

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ORIGINAL: redrum68
Seems like the bigger question is whether the larger pocket is a real threat or not?

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

Sorry Der Fuhrer, eat your heart out!!!

+1

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Comrade! we can definably close this pocket to just 1 hex!!!!!
Tombov has been liberated as well, I won't touch those units again for now
be VERY efficiency with your MP!

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Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
"Grossdeutschland Motorized Regiment SURRENDERED"
That looks very appealing : ) Well done
I want to talk to you Mamluke before moving the Tambov units, or if we decide you should do it.

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Comrades Behold!!!




what a beautiful Image and yes! that is L.S.A.H stuck in the pocket!
they were defeated in battle this turn, so they won't get or have ammunition nor fuel!

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Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Marvelous work commander!
7+ german divisions in that pocket including the LAH division with some of the hunns finest, around 100,000 men. Let's finish them. Good work Mamluke
They're even logistically cut off

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
yep, which means they won't get even small amounts of ammunitions nor supply and still suffer from isolation for 1 turn(edited)

that + 1st winter gets quite nasty

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Erzac, Soviet Air Commander
That's a sweet pocket there

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ORIGINAL: Beria

T030 Sov Tambov

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Comrade! we can definably close this pocket to just 1 hex!!!!!
Tombov has been liberated as well, I won't touch those units again for now
be VERY efficiency with your MP!

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Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
"Grossdeutschland Motorized Regiment SURRENDERED"
That looks very appealing : ) Well done
I want to talk to you Mamluke before moving the Tambov units, or if we decide you should do it.

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Comrades Behold!!!




what a beautiful Image and yes! that is L.S.A.H stuck in the pocket!
they were defeated in battle this turn, so they won't get or have ammunition nor fuel!

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Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Marvelous work commander!
7+ german divisions in that pocket including the LAH division with some of the hunns finest, around 100,000 men. Let's finish them. Good work Mamluke
They're even logistically cut off

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
yep, which means they won't get even small amounts of ammunitions nor supply and still suffer from isolation for 1 turn(edited)

that + 1st winter gets quite nasty

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Erzac, Soviet Air Commander
That's a sweet pocket there

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ORIGINAL: Zorch
Well done. You are awarded the Order of Lenin, Hero of the Soviet Union.
Your Siberian vacation has been canceled.

Comrade Stalin

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

Yes well done comrade... so here's a little vodka, and go back there! The Motherland needs you! Our reports say that Der Fuhrer with his ridicule petite moustache is not happy at all about the trapping of his beloved LAH... he wants blood!

When he's done with you, you will want your Siberian vacations badly!

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

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ORIGINAL: redrum68
Looks like the Germans are gonna need to call in some significant forces now to push the Soviets back here a bit as their forces in this larger pocket are probably a order of magnitude more significant than what was lost in the small Tambov pocket.

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Comrades! Let's us Remember how far we came.




Turn 17




right Before mud. the turn of the great Voronezh pocket
This is how much was in said pocket, excluding the HQ
Almost 200K men! and if we discount the frozen divisions in the Caucasus, In fact we had a smaller army then the Germans alone!!!

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Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Whats our headcount now?

Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Turn 29

Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Not bad, +1 million

Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
a mere 3 months later, We recover So much Strength!

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
I got very Bad news, the game is refusing the build sapper squads for the Red army
we have been having this problem for dozens of turns now, and is still on going

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lictuel, Axis Centre Commander
I'm open to advice on how to improve the position.

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Telemecus, Axis Supreme Commander
all eyes on you this time - no pressure or anything :smiley:




the south side is now in control of the city of Lipetsk so probably not much can be done about that apart from holding against it

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KenchiSulla, Axis South Commander
Lictuel XXXXII was moved up to prevent what is happening now
You need to get strong infantry further down, you put them to guard a shoulder that is not important
And left the critical sector to worn out regi's

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lictuel, Axis Centre Commander
Tambov the greater pocket not looking good
good thing I pulled back I think

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Telemecus, Axis Supreme Commander
I would probably try to pull back as much as possible on the north side of your sector to shorten the lines and bring an overlap south




North is probably not going to be able to stretch anything more south now, has a problem it needs to extract itself from too
South is probably in the best shape and can most easily hold ground or do a controlled retreat
@Kenchis may be asking you to do what you can to move the South/Centre boundary further north

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

This is a nail biting saga!

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Axis Supreme Commander
and you may even be able to attack the cavarly of the north side to widen the pincer?
or the corridor from the pincer

at least make it awkward for their move next




there are hexes with defensive 3 and 5 that could be moved
and getting a line there with a unit in the black circle
at least places the Soviet cavalry in a ZOC lock
and will make it diffifuclt for them next turn
either they have to first attack the units there, or use a lot of MPs to close the pincer again

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Axis Supreme Commander
one bad thing about the large stacks in the mouth of the pocket is that they block a retreat path westwards for the units inside
so perhaps a unit like the security regiment, 2/285 security, which does not add much CV should be moved to the hex to its south west to give more stacking slots for retreating units?

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@Zorch
Beware of frostbite when removing gloves.

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lictuel, Axis Centre Commander
uploaded a new save, I pulled more forces closer to the action so that they can be used next turn. I also brought one of the mot. divisions from Orel close, maybe not needed but better safe than sorry

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Telemecus, Axis Supreme Commander
I know we said we would keep mountain units in the south for blizzard - but perhaps now a couple railed to centre would not hurt?

lictuel, Axis Centre Commander
might be a good idea to have them ready for the next turn

KenchiSulla, Axis South Commander
Re-assigned 1st mountain to OKH
and gave it a different color
4th mountain same
Uploaded the turn