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Changing the map ?? - 7/16/2003 5:04:49 AM   
StCyr

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 7/2/2003
Status: offline 		Hi,
I just looked on screenshots from EIA- seems to me that there took place some changes...
For example, there is now the city of Kiel included, north of Hamburg with a habour. In fact, Kiel was nothing more but a meaningless spot in the nowhere, until it became "Reichskriegshafen" in 1871. During the winter of 1813/14 there had been about 8000 soldiers from Swe, Rus, and some geman states in the city, which had by that time less than 9000 citizens...and thats the most important "role" this villiage every played by this time. The habour of Kiel is worth to mention only after the German Reich decided to challange GBs naval power, because before that time it was only used by local fishermen. So PLEASE try to respect historic facts if u need to change the map at all.
Btw, I like the AvHi Map colours much more than that presented by the screenshots.

uli
Post #: 1
- 7/16/2003 1:20:11 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		StCyr,

I agree with you regarding the colours of the map in some way. The base colour for "plain" is a bit boring. But that is just my personal point of view. The original game map was a thing of beauty, but they must make it "fresher". I just hope they avoid the Panzer General series misstake. Good looking game in I. Then "handpainted" pieces in II where they lost a the nice good grasp of the European map (and the units were also nicer in I). In the last III they made the map and pieces 3D but so ugly that I never bother playing more than two scenarios. If making changes, be sure they are IMPROVEMENTS. We are talking about a "game" here, the map and pieces must be nice, "colourful" in a distinctive way and the map a whow!

The screenshots are hopefully in low resolution and we can hope they change some of the colours on the map... Please Matrix?

Regarding the area north of Hamburg. It is the area called Schleswig-Holstein and there are several small towns and harbours there. Naming Flensburg one of them. I suppose they changed the map to represent these combined. They were also several battles fought in the area (before the Napoleon era and after) and many of these towns are walled and well defended. Denmark in the north were not one of the peace loving nations at all times...

Regarding Kiel has harbour, I supose it could be considered a good natural harbour?

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Post #: 2
- 7/16/2003 1:27:35 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		More questions for the map screenshot?

Holstein and Mecklenburg are nations. But what nations does Hamburg and Stralsund belong to? I don't see the distinct difference between provincal border and national border.

I can imagine grey being provincal and brownish the national border. But that does not make sense regarding the provinces mentioned above.
Is it possible to get similar screenshot of the rest of the map to comment on?:confused:

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Post #: 3
- 7/16/2003 3:59:21 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Unit markers.


Question to Matrix.
Could it be possible to use units marker like the ones in the original game instead of these soldiers?

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Post #: 4
- 7/16/2003 4:10:08 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		John, not to get off topic here, but I am curious as to why you think the maps/units in PG1 are better than those in PG2? You are the first i've ran into that thought so. However, I do agree with you that the 3D versions are not so great. This was yet another example of a development team jumping on the 3D bandwagon...

"If it's 3D, it HAS to be better!"

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Post #: 5
Re: Changing the map ?? - 7/16/2003 4:16:12 PM   
LarkinVB

 

Posts: 1887
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by StCyr
[B]Hi,
For example, there is now the city of Kiel included, north of Hamburg with a habour. In fact, Kiel was nothing more but a meaningless spot in the nowhere, until it became "Reichskriegshafen" in 1871. During the winter of 1813/14 there had been about 8000 soldiers from Swe, Rus, and some geman states in the city, which had by that time less than 9000 citizens...and thats the most important "role" this villiage every played by this time. The habour of Kiel is worth to mention only after the German Reich decided to challange GBs naval power, because before that time it was only used by local fishermen. So PLEASE try to respect historic facts if u need to change the map at all.

uli [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm born in Kiel. So be carefull what you say ;)

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Post #: 6
- 7/16/2003 5:48:58 PM   
StCyr

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 7/2/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I'm born in Kiel. So be carefull what you say [/QUOTE]

Well Larkin, I study in Kiel, and so I guess we both know what I am talking about...
:)

John, Hamburg had been a "Reichsfreie" city- it was free from any other ruler except the Kaiser of the Holy Roman Empire German Nations, and his power was also limited toward the city. Just like Lübeck, an important Hanse city. It was neutral when Blücher fled to this town in 1806 - also the french broke international law when they attacked and conquered the city.
[QUOTE]Regarding the area north of Hamburg. It is the area called Schleswig-Holstein and there are several small towns and harbours there. Naming Flensburg one of them. I suppose they changed the map to represent these combined. They were also several battles fought in the area (before the Napoleon era and after) and many of these towns are walled and well defended. Denmark in the north were not one of the peace loving nations at all times...[/QUOTE]

Indeed there are to some degree "well defended" cities in what is called Schleswig Holstein today. But Kiel never was one of them. Kiels habour was only usefull for the local fishermen ond some local trade. On the other side, Lübeck is NOT present on the Matrix sreenshot card. So why place Kiel but leave Lübeck away ? Seems to me like a map from Tennessee without Memphis but Graceland. ( Ok Larkin, now I have to watch my back ;))

Lübeck / Kiel is not that important- but I fear it is only one example for historical unreflected changes Matrix may do to the map.

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Post #: 7
- 7/16/2003 5:55:16 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Answer to Pippin.

The maps are nice, but the scale are all wrong. We are talking cities and landscapes. The map shows a major settlement with a few houses...

No I still prefer the maps used in the first game. The units were nicer-cleaner as well. They units in two looked to "out of focus". They look more like something I can paint myself.

As you can see it is a question of personal taste. (But I know several that also prefered the first game for similar reasons).

Answer to LarkinVB.
Kiel was a small little settlement back then, but so was most of these towns and cities. Malmo was just over 20-25 000, but the area was more populated. Perhaps the city is more a symbol of the strategic value and defense capacity of the region/area? Not to forget the capacity for a garrisson of considerable strength...

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Post #: 8
Hang in there. - 7/16/2003 8:46:54 PM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		I think those are the same old ancient screenshots.

Yet, it has been stated that Matrix will allow modding of the maps and the units.

For instance, the "flag" used for the base of the French unit doesn't look very good either. Prussia, Rissia, Austria, and Spain have plenty of detail on their flag, but for some strange reason, France does not. Since they're using the 1804 pattern flag, I cannot help but notice the lack of the words "VALEUR ET DISCIPLINE" in the center as it was on all French flags of that pattern.

IF these are current screenshots ( and I think that they're not ) there certainly needs some more work to be done. Rivers look ridiculously wide. That gawd-awful shadow is still present making the map look like land masses are floating in mid air. Etc....

Hey Matrix Games, how about giving use dates to the images? OR at the least, tell us that your going to post new images?

Thanks.

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Post #: 9
- 7/17/2003 4:37:06 AM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]That gawd-awful shadow is still present making the map look like land masses are floating in mid air. Etc....
[/quote]

Well, for the reccord. I tend to like that gawd-awful shadow ;)

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Post #: 10
- 7/17/2003 11:41:17 PM   
anibalbarak

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 6/30/2003
Status: offline 		Me too :)

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Post #: 11
- 7/18/2003 1:41:33 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		I, for three, also really like those colored shadows surrounding each country. Personally, I thought this was the best part about the map. It's a nice added graphic that gives the map a little more contour look. Just my opinion.

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Post #: 12
- 7/18/2003 2:41:20 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Gotta agree, love that map

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Post #: 13
- 7/18/2003 4:39:59 AM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Um, those screenshots are many years old, and were designed for another game. They are not EiA shots. They were of Matrix's own game, that was abandoned due to the evil plot of Jim Rose/TalonSoft/TakeUToo. So the actual maps will undoubtedly replicate the cities, and only those cities, in the EiA game.

Also, I like the look of the maps in the screenshots. HATED the original EiA things with a passion. Hated the cheap, hand-drawn counters even more. If either thing stayed for this product, I wouldn't buy it. That's a promise! :D

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Post #: 14
- 7/18/2003 6:51:05 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capitaine
[B]Um, those screenshots are many years old, and were designed for another game. They are not EiA shots. They were of Matrix's own game, that was abandoned due to the evil plot of Jim Rose/TalonSoft/TakeUToo. So the actual maps will undoubtedly replicate the cities, and only those cities, in the EiA game.

Also, I like the look of the maps in the screenshots. HATED the original EiA things with a passion. Hated the cheap, hand-drawn counters even more. If either thing stayed for this product, I wouldn't buy it. That's a promise! :D [/B][/QUOTE]

You wouldn't buy it? Really? Just cause of that? That's seems a little over the top man. A little too extreme. Not that it matters. Or maybe you were just kidding. LOL. Good one man. Good one.

:rolleyes:

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Post #: 15
- 7/18/2003 10:24:17 AM   
Forward_March

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/26/2003
Status: offline 		I loved the original EiA map...I even laminated mine. Did it so it'd last longer, and so that we could color the borders of our enlarged/shrunken domains. Laminated the status cards, too...so we could use grease pencils to fill in the numbers.

Russia and Prussia really got ripped off in the original counters...their flags were hideous and nothing near historical...Even Spain got better treatment.

I don't really care for the soldiers standing on plates. Would rather have regular corps markings...Big X for infantry, big Dot for artillery, and Cavalry...guess they'd be stuck with lance pennants.

Guess I'll wait and see, though. Can't be too picky when the game of my dreams lingers over the horizon.

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Post #: 16
- 7/18/2003 10:50:47 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		We always laminated the maps. We bought that sticky tack and used them on the corp markers and leaders so that they would stick to the board. This worked really well. It helped prevent them from falling off or arguments on where stuff was and all that. I never laminated the corp sheets, just made copies so you could use them over and over again and the originals never got messed up. The corps markers eventually would start to tear, but hey who cares, it's EiA!!!

As far as the corp representations, I would prefer markers. I hate those little stand up minituares. They give the game a real cheesy feel I think. Like Risk or A&A or something like that. Don't like it at all. But if that is what they decide, that is what they decide. :)

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Post #: 17
- 7/18/2003 11:44:23 AM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Ryta? Extreme? You bet!! I don't expect to buy 1978 artwork in 2003. That's nearly 30 years and EiA was no "Monopoly" classic. Actually, I would've played the game more if the counters had been just one half better. They weren't. They were hideous.

If you think graphics don't matter, well, hello T-Rex!!! ;)

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Post #: 18
- 7/18/2003 12:13:40 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capitaine
[B]Ryta? Extreme? You bet!! I don't expect to buy 1978 artwork in 2003. That's nearly 30 years and EiA was no "Monopoly" classic. Actually, I would've played the game more if the counters had been just one half better. They weren't. They were hideous.

If you think graphics don't matter, well, hello T-Rex!!! ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, breathe and try to lay off the caffeine. Are those screenshots really from 1978?? So you wouldn't play a game becuase of the way it looks? Even if the game is the best Strategy Wargame ever made? Wierd. I guess it is just so different from how I feel that I find it confusing, but everyone has their opinion. :)

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Post #: 19
- 7/18/2003 3:29:14 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Is it just me, or lately i've been noticing a lot of negative vibes against Talonsoft now that EiA is under development again.
:rolleyes:

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Post #: 20
- 7/18/2003 5:24:15 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The units of the original game are very well considered.
They are easy to grasp. Infantry corp - cavalry corp.
When games are released now, they tend to make very nice "soldiers" representing infantry and so forth.

I personaly dislike this idea to a degree. What they should do then is show an army. Not just a single soldier. It is a contradition right there. The corp consists of several different soldier types, infantry, cavalry, leaders, artillery, baggage trains and on and on. This makes a little strange way of representing units.

What would be nice is if the corps are represented by the "marker" on the strategic map and you could "zoom in" on the corp and see the army in the tactical "view". All those troops arrayed to parade... or marching towards that city. Mmmm I would like that kind of game and the computer graphics of today could make that possible!

Regarding EIA, I think I will enjoy the game whatever the troops looks like or the map too. Just make it beautiful with "clear distinctive colours". I just bought MG space game divided galaxies or something, I am not so sure I enjoy the graphics in THAT game. It is to much "3D" to be enjoyable...

So when can we see screenshots of the game we are talking about? If those shown are from the discarded game, please remove them. They just confuse us non beta testers.

Regarding cities and towns in the north of Germany, I have been there a lot and studied history too. Most of those "old" towns used to be part of the Hansa and thus rather wealthy and well protected. Why else would the Swedish accept them as peace conditions when they marched all the way down to Prague in the war in the 17th century?
There are many good historical maps from this region and period to make correct historical maps with the "correct" capital city. The Napoleon period is not that old and very well documented.

Thank you for your time and comments.

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Post #: 21
- 7/18/2003 8:39:48 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		ryta, please read a bit better, alright? The "screenshots" are a couple of years old. That places them circa 2000. It is the EiA boardgame graphics that are circa 1970's. Do you get it yet?

The screenshot pix are fine.

The use of solider "icons" in a game like this is EXCELLENT! First, there will be a forthright way to distinguish between corps and other units. I have no doubt.

Second, the representative figurine shows the uniform of the typical national soldier, thus providing a bit of an education. The info/data about the corps is also available via other means. Again, the screenshots posted on the site are of a DIFFERENT GAME; NOT EiA.

Third, I like the [I]look[/I] of the map and icons in the old screenshots (circa 2000). Is that clear now? :p

Not buying a game due to graphics? Have you been playing wargames long, or at all, ryta? Graphics are, probably, about at least 50% of the buying factor in board and PC wargames. Again, don't think your own indifference is the "norm" or even "rational". Graphics apparently are of little value to you. Not so to most other gamers I correspond with. I've bought many a game solely due to their graphical presentation; particularly their maps and the information they provide.

EiA the "best" strategic wargame ever? LOL, surely you jest!! Again, maybe to you, but I think there are some that also are "in the race". The "3rd Reich" series -- shortly to be remade into a global game by GMT -- is probably the "best" strategic game ever. That's my opinion. But then I'm not the one "proclaiming".

ryta, please try to understand that no one gamer speaks for all the rest, nor are one gamer's tastes necessarily even remotely the same as another's. Where you come up with these questions and accusations on matters of personal taste is curiously humorous! ;)

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Post #: 22
- 7/18/2003 9:23:55 PM   
John Umber

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/2/2003
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Best game ever...?

I have played several (owning a good lot of them too), and must state a few simple facts that most of you must agree with:

1. EIA is one of the few games where the "sides" are changing.
This gives the diplomacy strategy level of almost untold magnitude.

2. Units are included with several differences. Cost, movement, types, countries etc, etc. This is almost only better in "modern" strategy games from WWI and forward.

3. Battlefield strategy is a major part with their general. Is not the case in most games.

EIA is a very nice sum of all these. There are games better in some fields and some worse. The grand total is the beauty of EIA, not it's singel components. The biggest drawback is the time needed to finish the game and to keep all players interessted for the full term. Most games are just pitching two players against eachother to do their worst.

I think a computer version of EIA can achieve greatness, if the AI is superb. There must also be several interesting difficulty settings, to alow the players to learn and grow in the game. The hardest level should be like playing versus sveral "hardcore" humans with a nasty attitude of stabbing people in the back and a complete lack of humanity... To program this must be a nightmare.... Also allowing several "scenario" settups and playerchanges... like a editor included in the game.

I am as always looking forward to this game...

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Post #: 23
- 7/18/2003 10:50:13 PM   
HordesOfSerbs

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 7/4/2003
Status: offline 		I _hate_ cheesy little soldier figures, ornamental maps, pseudo-historical music and idiotic sound effects.

Wouldn't spend a minute of development on that crap but that's what sells the game to the uninitiated unfortunately.

Gimme the good ole corps counter!

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Post #: 24
- 7/18/2003 11:02:12 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capitaine
[B]ryta, please read a bit better, alright? The "screenshots" are a couple of years old. That places them circa 2000. It is the EiA boardgame graphics that are circa 1970's. Do you get it yet?

The screenshot pix are fine.

The use of solider "icons" in a game like this is EXCELLENT! First, there will be a forthright way to distinguish between corps and other units. I have no doubt.

Second, the representative figurine shows the uniform of the typical national soldier, thus providing a bit of an education. The info/data about the corps is also available via other means. Again, the screenshots posted on the site are of a DIFFERENT GAME; NOT EiA.

Third, I like the [I]look[/I] of the map and icons in the old screenshots (circa 2000). Is that clear now? :p

Not buying a game due to graphics? Have you been playing wargames long, or at all, ryta? Graphics are, probably, about at least 50% of the buying factor in board and PC wargames. Again, don't think your own indifference is the "norm" or even "rational". Graphics apparently are of little value to you. Not so to most other gamers I correspond with. I've bought many a game solely due to their graphical presentation; particularly their maps and the information they provide.

EiA the "best" strategic wargame ever? LOL, surely you jest!! Again, maybe to you, but I think there are some that also are "in the race". The "3rd Reich" series -- shortly to be remade into a global game by GMT -- is probably the "best" strategic game ever. That's my opinion. But then I'm not the one "proclaiming".

ryta, please try to understand that no one gamer speaks for all the rest, nor are one gamer's tastes necessarily even remotely the same as another's. Where you come up with these questions and accusations on matters of personal taste is curiously humorous! ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

The only person here who needs to read a little bit better is you. If you read my post you would have noticed where I said: "but everyone has their own opinion." Did you not read my post?

Second: We were discussing the graphics of the map on the SCREENSHOT not the graphics of the actual map.

Third: If you buy games based solely on looks then I am sorry. If a game looks good and really sucks then why would you ever play it? I know I wouldn't. 3rd Reich is a good game, but I don't think (notice the word I, that means me, what I think) it comes close to EiA.

Fourth: Those little mini soldier statues suck.

Fifth: Don't be so voilent in your posts man, try to pretend you are not a little kid. Thanks.

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Post #: 25
- 7/19/2003 1:36:58 AM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Where do they continue to find them... :rolleyes:

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Post #: 26
- 7/19/2003 1:44:02 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capitaine
[B]Where do they continue to find them... :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you actually being serious kid?

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Post #: 27
- 7/19/2003 3:14:29 AM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Oh, how cute, the notorious "kid" [I]spiel[/I]; how clever. Bet you learned that from personal experience, eh? Whatever, "pal". Now if your bombast is finished... [turns back on little clown and ignores him from here on]. :rolleyes:

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Post #: 28
- 7/19/2003 3:14:37 AM   
soapyfrog

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 6/3/2003
Status: offline 		I agree the corps counters from the original game are better than some dorky tin soldier icon.

Hopefully they wil include a "use counters" option like in Hearts of Iron.

The orginal counter art was just fine. You could not possibly confuse a corps with any other type of counter.

If anyone wants to see an adequate representation of the game's original graphics look here:

http://www.soapyfrog.net/images/MAP_March_1807_small.jpg

(Warning: pic is about 2MB)

Also EiA is certainly one of the best Strategic games ever made, especially becuase of it's strong dipomatic element.

3rd Reich never impressed me. Wordl in Flames does the WW2 thing with far greater elegance and style... although for strategic WW2 games I think Paradox's Hearts of Iron has by far the most potential (as yet unrealized).

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Post #: 29
- 7/19/2003 3:18:04 AM   
soapyfrog

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 6/3/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capitaine
[B]Oh, how cute, the notorious "kid" [I]spiel[/I]; how clever. Bet you learned that from personal experience, eh? Whatever, "pal". Now if your bombast is finished... [turns back on little clown and ignores him from here on]. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
Funny you should say that because you used the same thing on me :D :D :D

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Post #: 30
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