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Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed...

 
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Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/1/2020 6:25:17 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Hello

With 1.12.03 out I have a question about dig in speed in this version.

Say you place a leader with double the admin value as an USSR army leader, I dont suppose you double the dig in speed? But how much do the admin value really matter? USSR has one admin 9 leader, would it be worthwhile to have him in a "digging army" with good dig in value units, not on the front and lots of construction units (or max one per army used per phase?), preparing a 2nd line of defense? Or are construction units and admin value of leaders rather pointless?

The new patch should somewhat increase the preparation of Soviet forts (which imo is very much needed), but how do you min-max your defensive positions beforehand?
Post #: 1
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/2/2020 4:17:26 AM   
56ajax


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Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
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The ability to dig, is the sum of the construction value of all the elements and is impacted by morale, fatigue (move a unit and see how its construction value goes down) and experience.

With that in mind do not move the unit, keep it supplied, and have it at maximum TOE. Obviously large units dig quicker than smaller ons.

I do not think Admin rating has anything to do with it.

You can also attach construction battalions to the units HQ, I think, and when the enemy gets within a certain distance of a population center apparently the locals come flocking with picks and shovels

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 2
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/2/2020 7:37:04 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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Here's a copy of some tests I did on construction. If only rough as I gave up but it's worth a read and sheds some insight.

Constructing Forts

All tests where carried out using the 1942 Campaign scenario. Two reasons; I didn’t want First Turn nor First Winter rules interfering and the Soviet Eng-Sap Bde was available. No combat took place in any test. As this scenario has no Soviet Construction Bns nor Eng-Sap Bdes when it starts (I find that weird but it is what it is) all Bn/Bde had to be built from scratch on the turn the fort was built except for some tests were full Bn/Bde were use.

I recorded six things:

Level 2: Build time in turns between level 0-2.
Level 3: Build time in turns between level 2-3.
Increment: Percentage added per turn between level 2-3 without any assistance.
Bonus: Build percentage added by construction units, generally a Bn but could be Bde.
Bonus increment: Percentage per turn between level 2-3 with assistance.
Total: In turns to reach 3.1, the max for a fort in clear/town terrain.


The same Army and level 9 leader except for two tests when I checked admin effects. The army had no units attached other than applicable construction support units and was always 1 hex from the fort, whether attached or not. Army’s TOE was set at 100%.

The Front used the same admin 6 leader throughout. Like the army it no units attached and only applicable construction support units. It was either 4 or 8 hexes away from the fort. Front’s TOE was set at 100%.

STAVKA was 20 plus hexes away so never in range of any test and therefore had no effect in any test.

One strange anomaly in all this testing was, I never got an odd number?? E.g. 1.18, 2.80 and never 0.43, 2.35 etc.

Time to reach 100% TOE
It took on average 4 turns for the Fort to reach 100% TOE. No construction was ever recorded on the first two turns of any test although a mud turn on either always resulted in a slower level 2, hence total build.

The average time for a Construction Bn to reach 100% TOE varied depending upon were it was! Not, as you might think Army or Front but HQ or fort. When attached to an HQ it took on average 9 turns; when attached to the fort, 7 turns? Strangely the Eng Sap Bde took same length time??. Interesting in it’s own right. The more Bns there where the slower it tended to take to reach level 2 but usually only by one turn. This was often offset by the fact that there were more of them so the level 3 was reduced.

Weather
Weather was either clear or mud. I forgot about mud so the first few test I carried out resulted in a mud turns occurring. There was always mud turns 16-19 (in Oct), turn 20 snow all the rest clear. I didn’t want mud in the test so I often had to back track one turns to get back to clear. I could do nothing about October’s mud. The effects of MUD on construction is to HALF the build rate for the turn.

Total Build time to reach level 3.10.
Without any assistance the total was 19 turns. I ran this test 3 times and it highlighted mud turns halve the construction speed for the turn. Even 1 mud turn resulted in it taking 20 turns. I never had more than one mud turn excluding those in Oct.

The increment was almost consistent 12% resulting in level 3 being 8 turns. This is an important figure as you’ll see. I chose to record this increment between level 2-3 because the build speed had slowed, resulting in more of them to record and the construction units/fort TOE were always over 98%.

Fort TOE Size
In a few tests I set the TOE of the fort to 60%. This had a marked effect on construction time. It took on average two more turns to reach level 2 and the fort never reached level 3 in the 20 turns.

Each increment was 8%, roughly 2/3rd which is what you’d expect with only 2/3rd TOE. It was 4% in mud.

Army Admin Tests
With one construction Bn placed in the HQ the tests were run 2 times at admin levels 3 (lowest I could find), 5 and 9. In all the tests the total time was only ever reduced by 1 turn, e.g. it took 18 turns.

The increments could change, with the construction Bn adding a possible 2% bonus. Not much and would only ever results in a 16% increase over 8 turns for a typical level 3 time. The problem is it based on an Admin check and therefore random. As you expect the unit passed more checks at level 9 than 5 etc but it had negligible overall effect. They all took 18 turns.

Next step was to add more construction Bns, 2, 3 and finally 6 to the HQ. Not one of the tests ever produced more than one bonus, so the bonus increment never exceed 14% (12+2%). There was never more than one bonus added per turn no matter how many construction Bns I used. What did change was how often they occurred, i.e. the more Bns there were the more chance there was of the bonus being generated. Even when a bonus was applied every turn for level 3 (8 turns) the total was only ever reduced to 18 turns. It might be possible for it to get to 17 if all the admin checks succeeded.

The next series involved using Sapper Bn. Because they reached max TOE quicker (one turn, yes one turn) the level 2 times were always one less than when a construction Bn was used. They also consistently generate the bonus more often but the overall effect of the two was to only reduce total build to 17 turns.

For the final test I used 1, 2 or 3 100% TOE Sapper Bns from the start. Basically everything was quicker to level 2, level 3 and total time. Total time was now 15-16 turns. Note that when I used 3 full Bns every level 3 turn had a bonus generated but it still took 7 turns to reach level 3

Observations. Worrying about admin as far as construction goes is pointless. Proviso is, it might at higher levels which I have never tested.

As far as the bonus goes it appears to be working as intended, there was never more than one bonus of 2% added in any test I did that involved only one HQ and one fort no matter how many construction units there were in the HQ. Putting more than one construction unit into the HQ improves the chance of this bonus being generated however. Using Sapper Bn does, as does 100% TOE units but the best you can do is reduce total by 4 turns, mud allowing.

Corp, Army and Front test
In these tests I was only interested in the possible HQ bonus so All tests started with a fort at level 2 (2.4 actually) and with full construction and Sapper Bn. I used various combinations with the fort always attached to the lowest HQ, C+A, A+F, C+A+F and A+F+STAVKA.

It does work as the manual says with up to three HQ all within 5 hexes of the next possibly adding a bonus but there are some big howevers.

Any bonus generated by an HQ is never guaranteed although the more construction units there are the more chance of the bonus being generated. STAVKA (and I suspect any high HQ) never helps with construction. When using Construction Bn I never got more than one HQ bonus no matter how many nor where the construction Bns were located. Sapper Bn did work as the manual suggests, often generating 18% increments to level 3.

Observation. So far the quickest build time I had from 0 to 3.10 was 13 turns. To achieve this I used 3 full Sapper Bn in each of the three in range HQ. (C+A+F). When using 3 Construction Bn the typical time was 15-16. turns.


(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 3
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/2/2020 9:32:17 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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Admin helps with activating any construction units in the HQ, so it does help. the question is if it helps each unit with dig in as well, but I suppose not then. Or would the construction value of attached units go up with a leader with higher admin? Easy enough to test out I suppose...

I read it but its unclear.

"When using Construction Bn I never got more than one HQ bonus no matter how many nor where the construction Bns were located."

Is this one construction BN per attached digging unit? Or per HQ overall? Would 9 Construction Bns be able to trigger on 9 attached divisions, one each? Or would the HQ start rolling for each of the 9 construction BNs, until only ONE of them was attached to a fort (highest level) and then leave the other 8 divisions without support, even if there are unassigned construction BNs left to assign? The quote could indicate both.


(in reply to Chris21wen)
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RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/2/2020 11:21:43 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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Fort value of 1 inside the game is rendered as 0.02 (so internal fort value of 50 is seen as 1.00). That's why you never see odd values, as 0.02 is smallest possible step.

(in reply to juv95hrn)
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RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/2/2020 7:42:45 PM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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Admin rolls play a part once building over level 3.10 forts (failed admin roll halves construction value).

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/3/2020 3:08:23 AM   
thedoctorking


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Did you have any divisions stacked with the fortified zone?

I did a test using the 41GC where I put a fortified zone and two divisions on the critical hexes near Leningrad, adding sapper regiments to the HQs, and got to level 4 forts in six to nine turns. I drove some Germans up to within ten hexes by turn seven so as to engage the civilian help. Didn't think to check the effect of admin rating, though. Just wanted to see if the Soviets could make Leningrad impregnable to direct assault if they built fortification zones on turn one.

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/12/2020 9:49:51 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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What I wonder is if an army HQ with many sapper units (fx one per division in the Army) and a high admin leader would increase the speed of all the divisions. Or just increase the chance that ONE division, (the one in the highest fort level?) gets sapper support, but then the rest of the engineer units are wasted.

Edit:

What are the odds that a construction unit will add its construction value in a front? In Stavka? roll of 10 below Admin value? Or roll of 20 and 40 respectively?

< Message edited by juv95hrn -- 2/13/2020 12:35:41 AM >

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 8
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/13/2020 6:03:37 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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For every division every engineer or construction unit in a HQ is eligible to help. One unit may render help once per turn. Failure to help doesn't block another attempt (to a different division). Once one unit will be sent to help, others will not be tested.

Edit: wait that was before 1.12.00, I'll have to look for details of the new system. I think it may be less random and more organized now.

< Message edited by morvael -- 2/13/2020 6:10:45 AM >

(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 9
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/13/2020 6:23:12 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
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See change 14:

Changed the way support units attached to HQs build forts, using scored selection process, just like cities do, with several differences. Maximum range depends on HQ type, and is equal to 20 for High Command, 15 for Army Group, 10 for Army, and 5 for Corps. Target hex must contain units attached to that HQ (directly or indirectly) to have a chance of being selected. Support units build forts in descending construction value order, picking eligible hexes in descending score order. Each hex may be only picked once, but if there are more support units in given HQ than eligible hexes, the process will restart from the highest scoring hex, as many times as required. HQs build forts after all combat units, starting with the lowest ranking HQs.

Bear in mind per turn limit may prevent SU from helping much if fort levels are low.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 10
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 2/13/2020 7:31:09 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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"Once one unit will be sent to help, others will not be tested."

Per hex right? 10 construction units can theortically help 10 help 10 units in one turn, if all admin rolls suceed? Or having more units only increase the chance of ONE unit being picked


What is a "hex score order"? Coordinates?

"Bear in mind per turn limit may prevent SU from helping much if fort levels are low."

What is the turn limit in this case? And what does it matter if they are low?

And higher HQ rolls are harder than a regular admin roll to succeed with or the same?

I feel really daft when it comes to grasping this, but its a major difference either way the rules actually in all these situations, so its important to understand.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 11
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 4/2/2020 2:44:09 AM   
Joneleth

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

See change 14:

Changed the way support units attached to HQs build forts, using scored selection process, just like cities do, with several differences. Maximum range depends on HQ type, and is equal to 20 for High Command, 15 for Army Group, 10 for Army, and 5 for Corps. Target hex must contain units attached to that HQ (directly or indirectly) to have a chance of being selected. Support units build forts in descending construction value order, picking eligible hexes in descending score order. Each hex may be only picked once, but if there are more support units in given HQ than eligible hexes, the process will restart from the highest scoring hex, as many times as required. HQs build forts after all combat units, starting with the lowest ranking HQs.

Bear in mind per turn limit may prevent SU from helping much if fort levels are low.


quote:

Each hex may be only picked once, but if there are more support units in given HQ than eligible hexes, the process will restart from the highest scoring hex, as many times as required.


Am I correct in understanding that this sentence:

Each hex may be only picked once, but if there are more support units in given HQ than eligible hexes, the process will restart from the highest scoring hex, as many times as required.

Means that after all eligible hexes gets help its possible or a Hex to be helped by another support unit? So lets say i have 30 Construction SU on a HQ, and only 2 hexes are eligible. can these 2 hexes potentially get 15 support units helping each?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 12
RE: Question about leader admin value, and dig in speed... - 4/2/2020 5:48:26 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
As an aside, if you have created a Fortified Zone or Region remember they come with Refit on. Make sure you set their Status to Ready asap as Refit = No Dig.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to Joneleth)
Post #: 13
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