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Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval searches and interceptions

 
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Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval search... - 4/2/2020 9:51:18 AM   
Nachtmahr667

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline 		In my current game, I felt that there is much too great a discrepancy between active air-naval searches (against warships) and reactionary air-naval interceptions (against transports), both in regards to finding the enemy as well as engaging him.

Let's talk about finding the enemy first: I don't know the exact mission success percentage for finding enemy fleets when I am _actively_ searching for them (specifically speaking: 2 Italian bomber units stationed in Sicily trying to find British fleets off the coast of Algeria/Tunesia), but based on dozens and dozens of search attempts, it seems to be around 20% or so, even in good weather. By contrast, a single British bomber unit in Egypt managed to find my Italian troop transports 6 out of 6 times, when it was _reactionarily_ intercepting their movement.

I know that warships are faster than transports. But even warships don't move at their top speed all the time. Their cruising speed is much lower. Also, they are bigger and taller, thus should be easier to spot. Additionally, I feel there should be a bonus for _actively_ searching or alternatively a malus for _reactionarily_ intercepting. I feel something has to give.

Now let's talk about engaging the enemy: Even if my Italian bombers manage to find the British fleets, they normally do either no damage at all or only light damage to them. By contrast, my transports and all their cargo get completely and utterly annihilated in one single go by the British bomber unit. I do not think that this is alright.

I know warships are more resilient than transports, but even warships proved to be rather vulnerable to air power when without air cover of their own (Bismarck, Prince of Wales, Repulse, the Japanese carriers at Midway, Musashi, Yamato, the list goes on...). Also, attacked transport convoys could and did scatter or leave slower moving ships behind etc., so it was quite difficult, even impossible, to get ALL of them. So either attacks against warships must be more effective, or attacks against transports less effective. Let convoys arrive decimated, or force them to return with losses like intercepted paradrops. Something has to give. Right now, the discrepancy is comically stark.

Have a great day,

Alex
Post #: 1
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 10:34:55 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Did you try to compare the advancements of the Italian bombers and the advancement of the UK bomber?

Bomber can have four type of advancements and two of them (Naval Air Training and Detection and Electronics) may help.

From the manual:

quote:

Bombers All Unit Types
Close Support – Focuses on increasing tactical ratings of bomber groups
Strategic Bombing – Focuses on increasing strategic ratings of bomber groups
Naval Air Training – Focuses on increasing naval air ratings of bomber groups
Detection and Electronics – Focus on electronic anti-sub detection increasing anti-submarine values


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Nachtmahr667)
Post #: 2
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 11:39:15 AM   
Nachtmahr667

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Did you try to compare the advancements of the Italian bombers and the advancement of the UK bomber?

Bomber can have four type of advancements and two of them (Naval Air Training and Detection and Electronics) may help.

From the manual:

quote:

Bombers All Unit Types
Close Support – Focuses on increasing tactical ratings of bomber groups
Strategic Bombing – Focuses on increasing strategic ratings of bomber groups
Naval Air Training – Focuses on increasing naval air ratings of bomber groups
Detection and Electronics – Focus on electronic anti-sub detection increasing anti-submarine values



No, I did not try to compare the advancements, but I also don't think that the problem lies there anyhow, because
a) the game is currently mid-1941, so the advancement differences can't be that great
b) "Detection and Electronics" buffs ASW, but I am talking about finding surface ships
c) even if the British bomber has a Naval Air Training specialization, it's still over-the-top if it single-handedly completely annihilates corps-level troop transports in one single go each and every time.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 3
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 3:01:47 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		When you purposely go out to attack an enemy that is your move toward them on your turn. They already positioned themselves and you are trying to engage. You are moving to where they decided to sit. This means chances to find are based on your recon level of that hex.

When they move they are moving to where you are. Your patrol area. This means your chance to intercept is based on where they end their move. Closer to you they are higher chance.

Unescorted transports are easily sunk. As they should be.



_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Nachtmahr667)
Post #: 4
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 4:21:01 PM   
Nachtmahr667

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

When you purposely go out to attack an enemy that is your move toward them on your turn. They already positioned themselves and you are trying to engage. You are moving to where they decided to sit. This means chances to find are based on your recon level of that hex.

When they move they are moving to where you are. Your patrol area. This means your chance to intercept is based on where they end their move. Closer to you they are higher chance.



I'm not quite sure why this technical game mechanic should make such a huge difference. In both cases air planes try to find and attack enemy fleets that are ~500 miles away. I don't see why one should be likely to fail while is other is guaranteed to succeed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Unescorted transports are easily sunk. As they should be.



"Easy", yes. But then again, "easy" has several levels. The level here is "successfully manage to lie on the floor when you're drunk" easy. I do not think that this is the most appropriate level of "easy", because at the current level, the Luftwaffe would have sunk all evacuation ships around Dunkirk. Total destruction of the enemy is not THAT easy after all.
Also, I don't see why and how some AA-helpless Italian cruiser or two should make any difference in an air attack.


< Message edited by Nachtmahr667 -- 4/2/2020 5:16:18 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 5
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 5:58:26 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		A naval group is way more than 1-2 ships. Transports don't have AA protection either.

Doing a naval air attack in the face of other ships firing AA at you while you try and engage a vulnerable target that is being shielded is much harder than doing the same thing vs pretty that target basically sitting there doing nothing.

Try playing darts and I let you get as close as you want and I keep quite.

Now imaging that same dart game with 12 angry ex-girlfriends shotting nerf darts in your face yelling at you. If you get to close to the target they hit you with their shoe. Now let's see how good you are at through darts.

They way spotting and recon works is best for the game mechanics itself at the moment. It allows both players to make their choices on their turns.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Nachtmahr667)
Post #: 6
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 7:17:27 PM   
Nachtmahr667

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Now imaging that same dart game with 12 angry ex-girlfriends shotting nerf darts in your face yelling at you. If you get to close to the target they hit you with their shoe. Now let's see how good you are at through darts.



I think you are exaggerating the effect of (early) AA fire. Late-war American AA-capabilities may have been impressive, but everything else was mediocre at best. Usually worse. Look at Taranto. The whole Italian fleet's AA + harbor defenses AA shot down 2(!) sluggish biplanes and couldn't prevent the loss of 3 battleships. Hence, I don't see how a couple of Italian cruisers could ever "shield" a convoy against an air attack.

But ok, I guess you have made up your mind and you are the designer!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

They way spotting and recon works is best for the game mechanics itself at the moment. It allows both players to make their choices on their turns.



Fair enough!

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 7
RE: Bad luck or bug? - Discrepancy between air-naval se... - 4/2/2020 8:19:32 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Dude, it's the Italians. They are good at making food not shooting down biplanes at 7am when they are having coffee.

Sometimes things have to be adjusted to make the game playable. Naval combat is one of the hardest things to get right in a game.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Nachtmahr667)
Post #: 8
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