Lokasenna
Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Hi Everyone,
I haven't had time to read through every page, but I'm just going to reiterate that this should not be a political thread. Discussions regarding politics should be taken elsewhere (i.e. not our forum). Stick to news and personal experiences regarding the Coronavirus in this thread. In general, we do not allow personal attacks or controversial discussions on politics or religion specifically because we want these forums to help unite wargamers rather than adding to the division already present in the real world, plus there are many other avenues available for those discussion for those who have to have them.
Regards,
- Erik
Acknowledged, but I'm still going to call out the posts below and then I'm going to be done with it, because posts like these, in this thread and historically, have directly fomented an unwelcoming atmosphere of hostility here, often in the same breath as accusing those of us at whom that hostility is directed of being hostile when we have been anything but. And if this ends up being my last post here because y'all banhammer me for responding to violations of decorum with what is intended as a polite post of my own (that may still technically violate decorum), then so be it. That's actually kind of my whole point, and one I've raised here in the past when efforts to drum out opposing perspectives (intentional or not) have begun dominating discussion.
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ORIGINAL: Ian R
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
We are just supposed to take him at his word that it says what he says it says.
As opposed to deliberately misrepresenting what it says? 
I'm sorry, what?
Here's what he wrote: "Meanwhile, according to a 2012 study, cancer patients in the US “lived longer than in the EU, and these survival gains were not due to more aggressive screening of US patients”, but to the higher expenditure that characterises the American system."
No link, so we have no idea what study he's referring to. Nor did I misrepresent what he wrote by saying: "He mentions a single study that pointed to the "higher expenditure" associated with US cancer patients surviving for longer. Well, yeah - they survived for longer, and we pay more for the same treatment in the US than patients do in other countries." He also asserts that the study says spending more = surviving for longer, and that's exactly the kind of claim for which we need a link. It's entirely possible that the study simply says that these cancer patients lived longer and at higher cost but that the higher cost wasn't the plausible direct cause for the survival gains. But he didn't provide a link, so...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Loka, you and others haven't batted an eye at the most overtly offensive political commentary in here. I could give examples but won't, mainly because I'll be calling out people who spoke in the heat of the moment but who are well-regarded members of this community.
As for MindMessing, if you read through this thread in total, you'll see the repeated snarky nature of his comments, my repeated requests that he take it private or elsewhere, and his refusal to do so. There have been private asides between him and me, and there has been past history, in which he repeats his behavior ad nauseum. I disagree with him on many things - as I do with others - but his behavior has been beyond anything I've encountered before on a Matrix site, by far.
I have him blocked now, so hopefully we can coexist peacefully. But if my presence and attempts to avoid the political mayhem in here (that allegedly wouldn't transpire) fail, I'll bow out of the thread I started.
The most overtly political commentary - what would that be again? Have no fear, I've resolved to call them all out, but I'm not going to tell you to give your mouth a rest as some in this thread have said to us. You're referring to this post that started this whole thing, correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
As an outsider, there's been a strong vein of American exceptionalism in this thread. Things akin to "the US health service amazing and will easily cope", and other claims that aren't really supported by the international health rankings.
Granted, it's nearly twenty years old, but it does challenge these assumptions
https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
Also, if anyone knows any more recent comprehensive comparison work on healthcare performance, please let me know.
There's a mild, non-accusatory statement in there which is directly related to the global experience of COVID-19 and then a link to support the statement, as well as an open invitation to refute his argument with citations (not empty assertions).
You've encountered behavior worse than his (as if his is bad), but you're just turning a blind eye. Scroll on up to the posts I quoted, why don't you? At this point, because I know you're not actually obtuse, I can only conclude that you're either not reading the posts that shut down those you disagree with or you're deliberately ignoring them, while castigating those you disagree with for their alleged bad behavior. While I do find MM's posts somewhat snarky, and perhaps it's because I've been playing against him for, Idunno, 7 years - he's made it clear that he's just being up front and is amenable to receiving information that supports counterpoints.
You could give examples but won't, you say, but you will when it comes to other "well-regarded members" of this community. Funny how those of us that you do call out happen to be those of us who are younger than Gen X, which ordinarily wouldn't be relevant but for sometimes-present appeals to age-as-experience-as-authority, and do so only when we hold views opposing yours. Maybe you don't intend it to be so, but it definitely comes across as an attack sometimes, and often times as a signal that our thoughts aren't welcome here.
BTW, nobody owns a thread, even if they started it. Once posted, it's everyone's.
quote:
ORIGINAL: durnedwolf
I think ya'll need a hug. Not just you but everyone that's been pushing too hard. For those getting their dander up - take a chill-pill - or go outside for a walk while keeping a safe distance from others. We all have a fondness for this forum and most of us have good memories of folks we've met here. Let's not tarnish those memories - eh?
This place has been a great playground for me. I've met a lot of pretty cool folks here. Don't bow out. Just say what you wanna say and let others do the same. If you think someone says something that crosses the line then bring it to a moderator. Otherwise - let them say what they wanna say. Trust me - nothing in this forum or thread is gonna change healthcare or politics or anything else that's going on in the world.
This is a great playground. Come on - let's go play. 
I'm not a hugger, sorry. I would also love to ditch the gatekeeping and just let people post (goes for this whole forum, not just this thread). Gatekeeping is a lot of work when you've got a full time job and full time chores.
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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
quote:
The government is inefficient and cumbersome
Perhaps, but I don't see anybody else stepping up today. Folks seem pretty happy that me and my daughter (Veterans Administration)are putting on our PPE and putting ourselves in high risk areas to keep the world running. Not to mention my other daughter (pharmacy tech in a town with 800 cases). I personally played a major role in the construction in the largest 911 call taking and dispatch center in the world. And it is preforming magnificently although we are starting to run out of healthy folks to man it. Yes, I'm inefficient and cumbersome but if me and my coworkerks don't show up in NYC and other places this morning what do we have? I'm from the government. I'm here to help. There will be tens of thousands of 911 calls today and many of those calls are from people having the worst, and perhaps last, days of their lives. And someone, from the government, will show up to help. Not a lot of those folks are looking to shrink government to a size you could drown in a bathtub. I don’t see anyone from private industry showing up to take my place on the line today.
While I'm calling out political posts, this one by John isn't political itself but the post it quoted is. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
My DEATH CHART was posted for discussion of comparison. It's NOT my creation nor my beliefs.
Modern politics is for CHILDREN. I've got news for both sides - "America is over" been heading that way for awhile.
Then maybe you shouldn't have reposted it from wherever you got it, as it's nonsense. Being too busy to verify its veracity isn't an excuse.
BTW, bolded part is at least as political as saying, "As an outsider, there's been a strong vein of American exceptionalism in this thread."
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ORIGINAL: HansBolter
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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
Ah well, in two decades we could really be in even worse dire straits: after all, we are deriding a kid who is saying: "Here... Listen... The Planet is becoming a teeny bit warmer... And... I'm a bit worried".
And of course we are expected to react to any and every claim that the sky is falling by immediately putting all of our resources into restructuring the universe to accommodate the claim?
I take exception with your gentrified portrayal of a young fascist shouting at politicians to put their backs against a wall as a mere kid who is a bit worried.
The self same planetary doomsayers have been crying wolf since the 1970s and not a single dire prediction has come to pass.
The worlds coastlines predicted to be under water by now are not. The oil predicted to dry up hasn't (try reading The Deep Hot Biosphere for a different viewpoint). Yaddda, yadda , yadda and so on.........
This is the very politics that poison the thread. Why throw in such a hand grenade?
Hey look, politics again.
Honest question though: who predicted that oil would dry up?
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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
This is the second reference to Climate Change in which the poster (in both cases, highly-regarded forumites) referred to it factually, assuming that everybody agrees. While it is the predominant theory, there are still many, including some with credentials, that dispute it to varying degrees. This thread certainly isn't the place to engage in that debate. It's been tried before without success in other threads. We do well to remember that our takes on disputed matters are disputed.
More politics with the insertion of a personal political statement in the call-out of the politics.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I have to wonder what percentage of Americans who avoid health care do so as a result of the seemingly prohibitive cost and how many do so simply because they hate the experience.
I avoid doctors like the plague. I make some where around the national average in the way of income and have decent employer provided health insurance.
I still have to have a limb falling off before I will go to a hospital.
My experiences with health care providers has left such a sour taste in my mouth I actively avoid the experience.
For all the science and technology available to them they are still little better than snake oil shamans engaging in guess work.
I didn't get slapped by a nun, but I did get left with half a foot numb because the hack surgeon cut the nerve when sewing my ligament up. His flippant response that some 'incidental' nerve damage is yo be expected might have been something he should have told me up front. Then there was the kidney doctor who gave me a medication for nephrotic syndrome that gave me diabetes.
Some of us simply don't want anything to do with doctors unless we are actually dieing.
My partner is the same way. She hasn't been to a doctor in 5 years, and then it wasn't by choice (allergic reaction). She has different doctors now, and has had a rash of hives for 2+ weeks now as a result of getting into the Virginia creeper in the yard (...despite my warnings and insisting that she should wear gloves and not touch her arms/legs, and she proceeded to do none of those things...). I asked if she could put in a video call request with her doctor and request prescription strength topical steroids or something like that, because she gets highly frustrated in the evenings when the itching flares up, and the response I got was: "My doctors are incompetent." (She thinks this of all medical professionals.) I'm sitting there just thinking while she reports new hives as old ones clear up: "OK, but is avoiding 30 minutes with them really worth all the anguish you're experiencing and b*ing about it for 10 intense minutes every day?" That was my last attempt, she's on her own now  .
quote:
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
Politics? While this emergency has been politicised (which is a totally different thing), check what the USA and Russia are factually doing in the Artic, and then guess what made this possible. Pro tip: not politics.
If you want other sources I can provide them.
Kudos Falvo for understanding the distinction between politicized statements and politics.
And greater kudos for posting your experiences and reports, and tempering them with evidence and insight, and making explicit what comes from your own thoughts as well as from others (and who they are). You've provided a model for positive discussion.
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