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All of France strategy - 4/6/2020 7:57:49 PM

bullet911

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In my last game I decided to go for all of France, but after coming to the conclusion it wasn't going to work out (thanks to the efforts of my opponent). I decided to cut my losses and just take Paris, however once I went for the Vichy France option it turned out all my axis (German HQ, land and air units) units in Algeria moved to Tripoli and everything the allied player had there that was British surrendered. While this worked out ok for me, we both felt it was unfair and can be used as a gamey tactic to trap the allied player and both said it should be the same for both sides dead or alive. Thought I would bring it to light in case it hasn't been mentioned before and if anything could be done about it.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/7/2020 11:15:33 AM

pzgndr

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You selected the Vichy France option. This is a political decision to create Vichy France and Vichy colonies. So part of the deal is for Axis units to withdraw from Vichy territories, and that includes the French territory as well as the colonies. Axis player gets to choose. How is this a trap for the Allied player?

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/7/2020 12:37:11 PM

Markiss

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I believe he is referring to the fact that any British troops that can be lured into fighting on future Vichy territory will be lost upon the selection of the Vichy option. This gives rise to the ole "take all of France except Paris" strategy, then attack Algeria. When the British move troops to Algeria to fight you, you simply take Paris, select the Vichy option, and all of the British troops in Algeria are automatically destroyed.

That is the trap.

It doesn't come up very often, but here people seem to have stumbled upon this situation by accident. It could also be done very much on purpose, especially to an inexperienced player.

Something should probably be done about it. If the German troops can teleport to Tripoli, why can't the British troops teleport to Egypt or even just the UK? I don't see why not. If the Vichy regime is assumed to let the Germans leave in peace, why would they not allow the British to leave in peace? I'm not sure what the rationale is for destroying the British troops, it does not seem like they would just surrender in such a case, and I doubt the French would attack, since they were neutral, and the British had been their allies only moments before, and were just trying to leave. The Germans were also making peace overtures to the British at the time, and would not have pushed the French to attack.

I would like to see it changed.

< Message edited by Markiss -- 4/7/2020 12:39:44 PM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/7/2020 8:55:11 PM

Rannug61

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When Paris falls and France surrenders, UK units in northen France doesn't die and can be moved away to defend England or move to more southern locations. Something simular could be implemented in North Afrika.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/7/2020 9:32:26 PM

PvtBenjamin

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The Brit troops should move back to GB. Maybe Egypt

but definitely not disappear.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/8/2020 4:39:21 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss
...British troops that can be lured into fighting on future Vichy territory will be lost ...
... why can't the British troops teleport to Egypt or even just the UK? ...

An overseas teleport option might be problematic. Maybe an automatic disbanding would work; at least players would get something back.

But the luring thing, that's something that should only happen once to an unsuspecting Allied player that doesn't understand this potential trap. Generally not an issue.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/8/2020 5:22:24 PM

PvtBenjamin

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but if the Axis get to retain their troops in Algiers so should the Brits. The game makes the assumption that when France surrenders so does GB in Algiers, not so.

Someones inexperience shouldn't be an excuse for a game rule that shouldn't exist.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/8/2020 7:26:29 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

but if the Axis get to retain their troops in Algiers so should the Brits. The game makes the assumption that when France surrenders so does GB in Algiers, not so.

Someones inexperience shouldn't be an excuse for a game rule that shouldn't exist.

Just to throw in some additional thoughts here, I wouldn't say it is so much an assumption on our part that Great Britain surrenders in Algiers or other parts of Vichy France, but rather the game has simply made a choice on how to deal with the fact that France has surrendered and that a new French government sympathetic to that fact has been formed in Vichy.

Perhaps it could be argued that the Vichy option would never have historically arisen had sizeable GB forces been present in southern France, or Algeria etc., but since that never happened we'll never really know. Perhaps remaining Allied forces could have been forcibly interned by the Vichy regime? Perhaps Vichy and GB forces would have fought each other (Mers el-Kebir)?

What we do know is that Vichy did happen and to answer some what ifs we do allow the Axis side the option to keep on fighting and occupy all of France, but arguably any choice, and any outcome of these possibilities, should be provided within the context of an Axis advantage in this case as they are the historical victors and the ones that forced the surrender of France.

With that in mind, in game terms, and in handling Vichy and the possibility that sometimes Allied units may be trapped within potential Vichy territory, we simply needed to make a choice that A) seemed reasonable enough, and that B) would not throw off potential game balance.

For example, having all other Allied units returned to safety after a French surrender and armistice that agrees to divide French territory into an occupied and an unoccupied zone could arguably be too favorable to an Allied side considering France had just lost and been knocked out of the war, and it could also potentially turn into a destabilizing overall game strategy, e.g. all an Allied player has to do is put some units in Vichy territory and then the Vichy option is never granted etc.

Additionally, what would the historical significance of Dunkirk be if Allied units can just get a free pass home after France surrenders?

I would also argue it potentially does not highlight the tension and fear for survival that existed for the Brits post French surrender/armistice in examples like the attack on the remnants of the French navy at Mers el-Kebir (also mentioned above) and so on.

In the end, and without over-complicating things it felt justified to acknowledge the advantages the Axis side should have in a French surrender, e.g. their units returning to their own friendly territories, and that a French surrender and armistice would have been catastrophic for the Allied side as it was historically.

This just meant that any trapped Allied units after the fact would in game terms surrender as any other option would just feel too much like an unnecessary and undeserved friendly advantage to the Allied side at that point in time.

Hubert

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/8/2020 7:40:49 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rannug61

When Paris falls and France surrenders, UK units in northen France doesn't die and can be moved away to defend England or move to more southern locations. Something simular could be implemented in North Afrika.

It's a good idea but in game engine terms it doesn't really work as those territories are set to immobilized (with no units on the map) which is why we have have the remaining Allied units surrender and the remaining Axis units return to friendly territory.

The other option would be to have these territories be formed and remain active (if there are remaining Allied units), but it could become a potentially destabilizing strategy which rewards the Allied player more than the Axis player if it throws off other Axis timelines like the preparations for Yugoslavia and Barbarossa etc.

The other possibility is the remaining Allied units would be at a significant disadvantage and eventually be destroyed and the surrender then makes more sense as it reaches the same strategic conclusion quicker, or you could get a combination of the above and then it still provides the Axis with an advantage as they get additional free territory and MPPs for the duration of the game and much earlier in the game, which would then lead to Allied players avoiding the strategy and then you are essentially back to where we already are which is to generally avoid leaving any Allied units in there in the first place.

Essentially, any alternative would require quite a bit of testing to ensure it wouldn't throw the game off entirely, and in that context, it just feels to me that the current implementation is not that far off and/or just the most reasonably logical solution all things considered.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 4/8/2020 7:42:46 PM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/8/2020 9:19:17 PM

Fafnir

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If the allied units are in supply can they be bought back with the discount (for 60% of the cost) after surrender?
Would it be possible to disband them by the game engine so the player would get at least some mpp?

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 11:10:19 AM

Taxman66

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How about giving the Allied player a 'France Surrenders' or 'Declare Paris an Open City' DE at the end of a turn when certain conditions are met (say 3 or 4? or more hexes next to Paris are Axis controlled).

This would then force Germany/Axis at the start of their next turn of deciding on declaring Vichy or going All France.

< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 4/9/2020 11:11:28 AM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 11:29:29 AM

Rannug61

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If it can be done I think Taxman's idea is great! It is very gamey not taking Paris just to keep all doors open.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 12:03:09 PM

Taxman66

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The codition may have to be a bit more complex if this still allows Axis to isolate and bypass Paris without controlling the hexes immediately around it.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 2:46:34 PM

PvtBenjamin

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As pzgngr said its not usually an issue for experienced players, but should change. Good suggestions here to remedy.

Historically I think if GB got its units out a Dunkirk they would have probably gotten them out of Algiers.

In the PBEM game I worry about someone waiting to take Paris and attempting to take Algiers. If there are Brit units in Algiers just take Paris & go with vichy thus GB loses all its units and the Axis don't. This Axis strategy wouldn't cost much because you need to move a bunch of units to the Med anyway.

They attack the low countries in Oct '39 you know.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/9/2020 2:47:56 PM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 3:49:11 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir
If the allied units are in supply can they be bought back with the discount (for 60% of the cost) after surrender?
Would it be possible to disband them by the game engine so the player would get at least some mpp?

If we go by what the actual supply for those units would be upon a French surrender, e.g. transfer of territory and the normal resupply calculation after that, the likelihood of them being in good supply is probably very low. Perhaps for a pocket with a full strength HQ sitting on top of a city/town (which would have an occupied pocket strength of 3) then you might get a few immediately adjacent units to qualify for the 60% discount.

But, just thinking out loud here, how often would that happen when the units are fighting? If you are trying to position your units in a way to preserve strength and be in just the right spot to maximize returns after an eventual French surrender, wouldn't it just be more prudent to not lose the units in the first place? e.g. by keeping them out of those potentially trapped/surrendered positions altogether?

Providing a nominal amount back to the Allied player via an automatic disband could also be an option, but we'd have to think about how to explain that result in game that would feel intuitive, e.g. France surrenders, British units surrender, Allies get some MPPs back for their trouble?

Again, these could be implemented somehow but I have to be honest here and ask if this is what players really want? Is this truly a desirable strategy for the Allied player? For example, ultimately, isn't the preservation of your Allied units, to remain wholly intact, much more preferable, e.g. Dunkirk as the historical precedent for this?

I could be wrong but it just feels like potentially a lot of work for something that a player might do once, feel better about the one time it happens, but then never again as they are not likely to ever repeat it.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 3:55:59 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

The codition may have to be a bit more complex if this still allows Axis to isolate and bypass Paris without controlling the hexes immediately around it.

I can see what you are after here as well with this suggestion but I would be wary of it also becoming exploitable as I think you are here as well. Additionally 3-4 hexes is puts it anywhere from just outside of the Belgian border which potentially could create a much quicker French surrender than historical which could also raise concerns. (unless I've misunderstood here). It can also lead to more of those situations where those that understand the scripts better than their opponent has the advantage and there are concerns/issues with that as well.

It seems the primary concern here is the idea that Axis players can hold off from taking Paris and this leads to a potential exploitable situation. However, from just testing this again right now, if an Axis player is near Paris and holds off for a few turns eventually French National Morale reaches zero and France will still surrender and in turn the Vichy option will still be presented.

Does this really not resolve the concerns?

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 4/9/2020 3:56:11 PM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 4:15:22 PM

Taxman66

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Hubert I think you are misunderstanding a bit. Not 3-4 hexes from Paris, but rather (say 3 or more) hexes adjacent to Paris triggers the (new) Allied DE to offer Surrender via declaring Paris an Open city.
However, this could still be exploitable by the Axis if they cut off Paris and the surrounding 6 hexes (or say 4 of the surrounding hexes) and then continue with the cheesy Algeria strategy.

The idea is to give the Allied player some control and force the Axis hand in deciding on Vichy/All of France instead of using the choice as a Sword of Damocles over the Allied player's head.
This also has a bit of positive factor in being closer to historical than the current system.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 4:46:10 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks, understood.

I would still fear exploitation and in the end wouldn't the fact that since French morale eventually reaches zero, this more or less resolves the issue either way?

Essentially at some point it will be unavoidable that France will surrender to the Axis, e.g. the Axis hand is eventually forced in game already, is it not?

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 5:22:32 PM

Rannug61

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It might take a lot of turns before the French morale goes down to zero and forces the Axis to make the choice Vishy or all of France if the Axis plays it "easy" on the remaining French areas in Euro-France. I know this is very posible since that's what happen in my game with Bullet911(Axis). Our game continued dispite this disaster for the Allies but Egypt fell a lot easier because of it. Later on the Allies got the advatage due to the russian "superman-infantry" and we stopped playing.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 5:37:27 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks Rannug61 and in my test I tried a typical invasion through the Low Countries and Northern France and then had at least 3-4 Axis units adjacent Paris. It took about 2 turns after that before France finally surrendered.

Since I feel that the current National Morale method is potentially less exploitable than a similar check on hexes, it would be good to have more information to consider possibly adjusting the National Morale settings as needed.

Could you tell me a bit more about what your Axis opponent did exactly with his invasion of France to possibly slow down the final surrender of France?

Again, I just ask because the alternative proposal is likely to provide the same potentially delayed result if players were to know exactly which hexes to avoid and so on.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 6:41:17 PM

Rannug61

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Hard to remember the details now but bullet911 might recall how it went down. An idea could be to lower the national morale effect on loosing Paris but increase the effect on all other French objectives a bit, specially the Maginot hexes. Another way to go about it could be having a rule saying Paris must be occupied by an allied unit at all times and failing to do so would lower the French morale a bit. This way the Axis gets a shorter window of opportunity.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/9/2020 8:17:40 PM

Hubert Cater

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Tricky one for sure, too much of a NM penalty and France surrenders possibly too soon and before the Germans reach Paris, and too little and it can drag out too long. As it is now it feels about right where in most cases France will fall once Paris is captured (if an Axis player drives hard to Paris) and shortly thereafter if Paris holds out for a few extra turns.

Granted this might not be the perfect solution for what everyone is after but since we are pretty close it might not require much of an applicable adjustment if needed.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 5:07:14 AM

Markiss

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Good job, bullet911, bringing this topic up, this subject has attracted the best of company.

I am surprised Fafnir or Sugar haven't weighed-in, they usually do when such a weighty topic presents itself.

Are you guys still alive? You didn't succumb to the pandemic did you? Did you?

Sugar, play me. Anytime, any game. War in Europe. World at War. WW1. Are you still Alive???? Show me! I'm from Missouri. (Not really).

If not now, when !!!! Will we be alive a week from now? Who knows! Come on!!

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 12:14:31 PM

PvtBenjamin

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I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same.

Never really bought off on that final big battle.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 12:48:13 PM

crispy131313

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What if the Allies had the opportunity to declare Paris an open city via decision event like they had historically. The decision could be presented if there are no Allied unit in Paris or in the adjacent hexes. This would eliminate the gamey choice of the Axis to just not move in as the French could just hand it over. This decision would probably only pop up in this scenario.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 12:52:57 PM

Taxman66

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Thief!

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 1:46:48 PM

crispy131313

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Thief!

lol I didn�t realize that I stole that idea, need more coffee this morning!

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 2:41:37 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks for the additional feedback everyone.

Bill and I are discussing and I'd like to ask the following big picture clarification, and I just ask as a lot of different feedback has made its way into the thread, so we just want to make sure we've got it absolutely right here.

Is the primary issue the idea that some Axis players are trying to capture Algiers prior to Paris, and if they do, then they can say no to Vichy and quickly force the surrender of all of France, e.g. without having to battle any longer than they need to do otherwise?

Sensing an Axis player may be going for Algiers, and in order to prevent this, Allies send reinforcements there and can successfully stop the strategy, but then an Axis player subsequently decides to say yes to Vichy resulting in the Allies losing their units in Algiers which is the part that feels the most unfair to the Allied side?

Is this the big one overall, or are there any other concerns?

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 3:18:11 PM

crispy131313

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I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an �out� for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured while they see how all of France strategy is going and possibly goat the British to send forces to Algeria which will auto surrender as soon as they capture Paris.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 3:46:49 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an �out� for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured

A script to check for German units adjacent to Paris and no French units in or adjacent to Paris could suffice to force a French surrender and settle this gamey issue. For Allied units "surrendering" in neutral Vichy territory, since they are not really surrendering in the sense of becoming POWs but rather would likely be repatriated somehow, the automatic disbanding could be considered to return something to the Allied player. Just a thought.

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