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Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 5:58:54 AM

abulbulian

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Ok, WTF. It's not even Dec 41 and half of my Soviet leaders are killed in action. Before somebody even thinks it, NONE of my Soviet HQs were attacked directly. They just supported the defense of other used fighting units. So why are my leaders dying off like flies? It's basically ruined the game. I suggest that you have this an option. I'm not sure what the % is used in the algorithm to kill leaders, but it bugged or just so wrong. If HQs are directly attacked or worse destroyed/surrender, then sure it makes sense for chance the leader is killed or captured. But to have that many Soviet leaders dead when not one of these things occurs is just wrong. I'll admit, I kind of pissed off here. Please understand the game was an investment of my time. Also, I have see notifications of enemy leaders getting killed, but don't seem to remember ever seeing notifications in the main start turn window or combat log details of my leaders demise. That might be a legit bug or it's possible I missed it many times?

Either way please make this a game option. PLEASE!

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 4/6/2020 6:01:24 AM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 6:02:42 AM

abulbulian

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FYI I'm playing 1.00.061.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 1:54:19 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Well let's start with how many leaders were killed so far in your game. In my game which is in 1943 both sides I have had 1 leader killed.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 10:57:01 PM

abulbulian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Well let's start with how many leaders were killed so far in your game. In my game which is in 1943 both sides I have had 1 leader killed.

Sure, 4. I don't think you understand my main point. If you are going to make changes to the game with new features that could have a great impact on play balance. You might want to 'vet' them out as optional until enough data has been recorded to know how the feature is going to work in practice.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 11:00:46 PM

abulbulian

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The other point is that there should be a very (almost none) chance for HQ leaders to die when their HQ is not directly involved in combat. Now your turn to give me a number. How many high level generals (above div) on the east front 41-45 were killed (not just injured) when there HQ was not directly (front lines) involved in combat?

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 11:00:47 PM

MorningDew

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Leaders have been able to be killed that I know of. What makes you think this was a change (which perhaps it is...I am not in the know) v bad luck?

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 11:02:13 PM

abulbulian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

Leaders have been able to be killed that I know of. What makes you think this was a change (which perhaps it is...I am not in the know) v bad luck?

I don't want to play a game that can hinge on bad luck for something that is already unhistorical.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 11:04:40 PM

abulbulian

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I appreciate all the hard work Alvaro has put into the game. His consistent commitment to bug fixes and cool features is very rare. I also want Warplan to evolve and become better. Just would like leaders dying to be optional. I know the friends in my circle want to see this too.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 4/6/2020 11:06:09 PM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/6/2020 11:26:37 PM

MorningDew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

Leaders have been able to be killed that I know of. What makes you think this was a change (which perhaps it is...I am not in the know) v bad luck?

I don't want to play a game that can hinge on bad luck for something that is already unhistorical.

That wasn't my question.

You accused the dev of making changes with new features ("I don't think you understand my main point. If you are going to make changes to the game with new features that could have a great impact on play balance..."). All I did was ask why you thought this was a change as opposed to bad luck. Again, I am not saying it wasn't a change (it might have been a change for all I know), but I am curious why you think it was.

(Also, I get wanting to be optional BTW)

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 4/6/2020 11:28:38 PM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 1:59:36 AM

AlvaroSousa

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You got really unlucky but all generals gain experience. The worse they are the better they improve. Their impact on combat isn't game breaking either. It's a slight modifier.

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- Assault on Democracy SC2
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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 8:31:15 AM

sillyflower

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I don't know off hand how many generals died in WWII but I've just finished 'Nemesis' by Max Hastings (an excellent history of the war vs Japan in '44 -45)and he gave the numbers of Nationalist generals killed in the war vs Japan, which started in '37 of course, as 1.200 and 10 communist generals.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 4/7/2020 8:45:28 AM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 8:45:06 AM

sillyflower

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Max Hastings gives the German totals in his book 'Armageddon': another excellent read.

"In the Whole of the first world war,sixty-three German Generals died on active service,while 103 died of other causes. In the Second world war twenty-two Generals were executed by Hitler. Another 963 died or were posted missing on active service. An astonishing 110 killed themselves."

In WP terms, numbers of leaders 'killed' should be seen as leaders who died for any reason or captured. Obviously, not all generals are 'leaders' but if you say only 2% are leaders, that's still the equivalent of 22 leaders per game without taking any account of any generals /leaders who had to retire on grounds of ill health and there were probably quite a few of those

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 4/7/2020 2:33:14 PM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 10:28:07 AM

ncc1701e

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On the other side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Red_Army_Purge

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 4:14:31 PM

kennonlightfoot

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Out of 1100 US Army generals 40 died.
For Germans Hitler kind of raised the rate.
He executed 84. Another 135 killed in action.

But the game should probably have a very low rate of kills since it only has the highest level generals which are a small percentage of the totals. They were rarely killed. Usually by random bombings. Only a few were actually successfully targeted.

Russia and Germany probably should have some random political killings thrown in since that probably was the major cause of death of Army group commanders.:)

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/7/2020 10:11:27 PM

sillyflower

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Where do you get your German data from? Very different from Max Hastings (see my earlier post) who is always very reliable.

My 2% of generals counting as 'commanders' is a very low %age, but even that works out at 1 death per 3 months on active service, which becomes 1 every 2 months if you up the proportion to 3%. Add in ill health and permanent 'retirement' bu Hitler and the numbers go up even more.
abulbulian was a bit unlucky in his game that started this. I have had losses but not that bad. I suspect that losing a leader is more annoying (it is very annoying) than important in game terms. Afte all, both sides suffer the same way.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/8/2020 8:01:20 PM

RPKUPK

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I'm playing Europe: early Italian Option in July of 1942 Axis in England -- all of a sudden General Kuchler disappeared from the Third Army HQ and I was left with the nobody nothing default leader and I had to spend twenty-four points to get an equivalent leader back. Rats!
I went back and Kuchler was there in 3rd Army on the previous two turns and then he's gone, poof, no report of course.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/8/2020 8:45:52 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Nope the code is in there to send a report message. I just looked. You must have missed it. I have also seen it in my games.

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Designer Strategic Command
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Post #: 17

RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 1:39:00 AM

RPKUPK

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WRONG! No report. An experienced 7-7-6 commander replaced surreptitiously by a default nobody 2-1-4 or whatever!
I checked reports at each saved game turn, June 9 (Kuchler there), July 3 (Kuchler missing), and one turn after (Guderian switched in at great cost), July 17.
NOTHING.
WHERE then? WHEN DOES THIS REPORT APPEAR??
WHY is this CRITICAL info not in the turn report??
I'm pissed.

I tried uploading the turn report but your system rejected my HP print screen *.png, then could not handle the print converted to *.jpg, as "too large." I can email you the reports.
Please fix this bug/anomaly as I will not play the game again when a critical commander disappears (this one commanding all Sea Lion operations in southern England!!) and must discourage anyone from buying the game.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 2:13:45 AM

AlvaroSousa

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You don't need to get so upset over something like this. I'll look again and force a leader kill in a sample game with myself and get back to you.

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- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 2:43:15 AM

AlvaroSousa

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So I set generals to 100% die when in an attack and I performed one.

It shows on the reports. Now recently I did add so it shows on both sides of the reports. But to give you more information I will set a popup symbol to indicate a general has died in that combat to go a long with the damage reports. I think it would be a cool add on. It would be a popup with the damage popups that appear over the HQ. This way you won't miss a dead general. How does that sound?

Attachment (1)

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 7:58:02 AM

sillyflower

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Depressing?

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 11:51:54 AM

Uxbridge

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Pop-up in actual combat would be nice.

I'm also, often, missing the information on generals killed, not because it's not there, but because I tend to tire on reading all the reports.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 12:33:11 PM

RPKUPK

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This doesn't look like any turn-to-turn report available to me! What is the scenario description stuff doing in a in-game report?!

I want a POP-UP that halts play and appears on screen WHEN IT HAPPENS THAT MUST BE CLICKED AWAY BY PLAYER (**so it wont be missed** during a long AI turn) ... AND ... a report on the "Reports and Statistics" pop-up at the beginning of each turn.

They're giving me a paper bag to re-breath in to.

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 1:01:28 PM

ncc1701e

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By the way, did you notice the great new report made by Alvaro about leaders?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4780493

Very useful

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 2:14:54 PM

FrankGallagher

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This thread! With more than a few things in the world to get angry/upset about, complaining about not getting the information about a minor aspect of a video game BECAUSE I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO READ A HALF PAGE SUMMARY REPORT seems ... Well, just fill in the blank.

< Message edited by FrankGallagher -- 4/9/2020 2:15:10 PM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 4:28:22 PM

sillyflower

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+1

However, it is human nature. When someone is worried about something really bad but which they cannot control, it is very common to take the frustration out on something/someone else over which that person thinks they have, or can have, more control. For rather more extreme examples than one expects to see in wargames fora, just look at the posts above giving the numbers of generals who were executed by Stalin and Hitler during WWII.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 4/9/2020 4:30:43 PM >

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/9/2020 5:28:57 PM

MorningDew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankGallagher

This thread! With more than a few things in the world to get angry/upset about, complaining about not getting the information about a minor aspect of a video game BECAUSE I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO READ A HALF PAGE SUMMARY REPORT seems ... Well, just fill in the blank.

+1

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RE: Leaders dying so frequently? Bug or ? - 4/13/2020 2:45:26 AM

RPKUPK

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So far in my game v6 Europe: early Italian Option mid-1943 both von Kuchler and Albert Kesselring have been killed in action (Why not Ernst Busch?!).
I did not get notified of Kuchler's death at all nor was it in the turn-to-turn 'report and statistics,' likewise I did not get informed of Kesselring's death but I did spot it mid-turn, in the 'report and statistics,' the word "killed" in red font. The report and statistics box updates minute-by-minute within a turn.

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