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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 5:12:04 PM

Rannug61

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Nov 23, 2018 Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) WON by Fafnir ��..

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 5:36:06 PM

PvtBenjamin

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I know it the game of the century

Certainly the two best players.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 6:13:30 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an �out� for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured while they see how all of France strategy is going and possibly goat the British to send forces to Algeria which will auto surrender as soon as they capture Paris.

Thanks and I have some follow up questions then.

1) How viable is the all of France strategy?

2) How often are players trying it and is it something that would never work between two equal players, or is it still a possibility.

3) Is it dependent on capturing Algiers prior to Paris? Or is it simply the case of I can still take all of France, e.g. eventually take Algiers, even if I take Paris first?

* * *

The reason I ask all of the above is it seems to be an issue of timing. For example, where an Axis player, due to game mechanics, holds off on taking Paris because that's what triggers the final surrender (in most cases) and there is usually a bit of a delay where the National Morale reaches zero, and during that window they decide upon whether the all of France strategy is going to work or not.

In fairness there is a bit of gaminess to that and I think on our part we'd like to address that without possible further exploitation from the Axis side. Essentially everything always seems to come down to a science of a manipulation of the rules to squeeze everything out for maximum advantage and the last thing we'd want to do is only fix things temporarily, or miss something entirely whereby Axis players can still get what they want from this.

I also ask as we've had some further thoughts but it depends upon what some of these answers might be in the end.

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Post #: 33

RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 6:14:34 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
A script to check for German units adjacent to Paris and no French units in or adjacent to Paris could suffice to force a French surrender and settle this gamey issue.

My hesitation to this is that if I'm an Axis player, and these are the rules, I would probably be able to work around this by ensuring I destroy the unit in Paris without leaving any adjacent Axis units to Paris by the end of the turn. An in and out attack could achieve this etc. We could change it to two hexes and no units in Paris, but I think even that would be workable with air power and tanks. Maybe 3 hexes but then a French player would need to remember/know the rule and not accidentally force a surrender (and wonder what just happened) by possibly vacating Paris too early and we could compensate with a minimum date and well you get the idea... I just see it being a headache to get just right because I'm sure someone will be able to exploit this eventually as well no matter what we try, which is why I'm still leaning more towards a National Morale related solution.

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Post #: 34

RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 6:22:41 PM

Elessar2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same. Never really bought off on that final big battle.

Or a guy named Terif from the Battlefront boards, very similar style to Sugar's.

Of course, he wouldn't be the only refugee who might have changed his handle in the transition...

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Post #: 35

RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 6:57:27 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same. Never really bought off on that final big battle.

Or a guy named Terif from the Battlefront boards, very similar style to Sugar's.

Of course, he wouldn't be the only refugee who might have changed his handle in the transition...

I like your style Elessar, Lee Harvey Oswald my azz.

Actually if he didn't have an alternate ID he'd be the only one.

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Post #: 36

RE: All of France strategy - 4/10/2020 7:11:27 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks and I have some follow up questions then.

1) How viable is the all of France strategy?

2) How often are players trying it and is it something that would never work between two equal players, or is it still a possibility.

3) Is it dependent on capturing Algiers prior to Paris? Or is it simply the case of I can still take all of France, e.g. eventually take Algiers, even if I take Paris first?

* * *

1) All of France is certainly possible (almost a certainty if Axis tries), but if Paris falls (which it usually does) at least by late May I feel All of France is a loser for the Axis. The Allied player has to go on the premise the Axis player will try it and you can make it very painful. The worst thing for Allies is the Brits lose the bombers. They end up being expendable units vs units you have the (maybe) entire game. Refresh my memory does Spanish diplo need to be 30% for Spain to join after the fall of Algiers via AOF? I know DE 603 is 60%.

2) No one has tried it on me in a very very long time. Many tried it on me when I was new & it didn't help my impression of the game.

3) When it has happened to me the Axis takes Paris & doesn't accept vichy. I do think the game should prevent someone from just not taking Paris and then attacking Algiers tho.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 10:42:30 AM

bullet911

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Could you tell me a bit more about what your Axis opponent did exactly with his invasion of France to possibly slow down the final surrender of France?
IF I remember rightly I took the Netherlands then Belgium once they declared war and they fought my way through France. Albeit didn't go in as heavy as one normally would. Round the back of the Maginot line and steadily towards Paris (did leave Paris unoccupied for a few turns) sending faster units to capture the towns beyond and even in south west France, but leaving the NM objectives at Lyon and Marseille.

Personally taking all of France isn't as easy as one might think. A lot depends on when Italy join the axis and as my opponent proved (Rannug61) with the right counter it even has the potential to end the game if I didn't decide to just cut my losses, if the French reinforcements arrived in Algeria with what Rannug61 did as well there would have being no way of me taking it.

I'm not sure what the answer is (if there even is one) as there still needs to be a potential for the axis to try that strategy, the rewards for the effort are worth the extra MPP. But also feels harsh to the allied player that he successfully stopped the axis taking all of France but he lost out in the end.

Although it's not tried often an experienced axis player could always try 'All of France' knowing the outcome whether he captures Algeria or not and an allied player would have to then decided what units he is willing to loose if he tries to counter that.

Not sure what the answer would be anyway. Having all of France still needs to be a viable option.

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Post #: 38

RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 1:34:13 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks for the feedback again everyone and what we have a few further thoughts. Would the following help? One or the other or all?

1) All of France strategy is a little more challenging, e.g. perhaps an additional French unit in Algeria, available at start or via a UNIT event (forming a unit) as needed based on Axis unit range to Algiers, to ideally require less of an initial commitment from the GB player. For example while the final strategy is not yet clear.

2) An alternative capital for a France in Algeria, e.g. so that an Axis player needs to capture more than just Algiers. Perhaps Oran would be included.

3) An event (final details to be determined) to force the Axis to decide sooner on an all of France strategy or not. The likely event here would be along the lines of under the right conditions France is given the option to essentially surrender forcing the Axis side to decide on Vichy or not. For example, we already have it in place that if Paris is not immediately taken France will eventually surrender once National Morale reaches zero, but there is a probable few turn delay on this, and the idea here would be just to give the French side the option to accelerate this surrender from their end once the writing is on the wall and not leave it to the Axis side to drag it out as long as possible in gamey terms. This is inspired from similar suggestions already put into the thread above.

Also, for those that go for an all of France strategy, is it typically a direct amphibious assault on Algiers, or a combination of Italian units moving in from Libya via Constantine as well as a possible direct assault on Algiers?

Thanks and any further feedback here would be helpful to make sure we ideally get this as close to right as possible.
Hubert

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 2:10:39 PM

bullet911

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the feedback again everyone and what we have a few further thoughts. Would the following help? One or the other or all?

1) All of France strategy is a little more challenging, e.g. perhaps an additional French unit in Algeria, available at start or via a UNIT event (forming a unit) as needed based on Axis unit range to Algiers, to ideally require less of an initial commitment from the GB player. For example while the final strategy is not yet clear.

Also, for those that go for an all of France strategy, is it typically a direct amphibious assault on Algiers, or a combination of Italian units moving in from Libya via Constantine as well as a possible direct assault on Algiers?

Thanks and any further feedback here would be helpful to make sure we ideally get this as close to right as possible.
Hubert

I'd go for option 1 via a UNIT event (if it works after testing) whether that unit is allowed to transport to mainland France is another thing.
My game against Rannug61 it was by German units from Sicily to Tunis and a amphibious landing by Italy else where. Other ways are also possible

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 2:51:30 PM

Taxman66

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I like option 3.
Had it done once to me (while I was still playing pbem). It took the shape of a para drop into Tunisia with heavy air support then a drive along the coast.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 3:05:06 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

Refresh my memory does Spanish diplo need to be 30% for Spain to join after the fall of Algiers via AOF? I know DE 603 is 60%.

As far as I understand it, there is just the one DE for Spain to join and it is DE 603 with Spain at 60%.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 3:05:16 PM

Rannug61

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Another idea... If Paris is empty(no allied unit) and French NM is under under a certain level(20%, 15% or 10%) this will make France want to surrender and then the Axis player has to decide if he wants to go "All of France" or go with Vishy.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 3:33:33 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I like option 3.
Had it done once to me (while I was still playing pbem). It took the shape of a para drop into Tunisia with heavy air support then a drive along the coast.

Correct. I think the drive along the coast has become much more difficult with the new supply rules. Its key for the Axis to get German subs in the Med. If the gateways are blocked thats tough.

If the All of France ( via no vichy) can't result in Spain joining then the only reasons are the extra points, real estate, stops Torch and eventually Gibraltar. I can't see how its worth it.

1) You push the Egypt & Malta timeline way out
2) Harder to prepare for SU.
3) The Italian Navy probably need to engage the French Navy, always love it when the French Navy can reduce/eliminate Italian Navy
4) The Axis lose the Diplo advantage because the French negates the Italians until they surrender.
5) Allies will put a unit in Casablanca so the timeline gets pushed out even further to recapture.
6) If the Axis go AOF they cant successfully Sealion or capture London (Spain/Turkey diplo boost), unless they wait a long time on Algiers.
7) Axis can just Declare war on Vichy to get most of the points & real estate.

The Axis will eventually prevail but it aint worth it.

AOF shouldn't be possible by just not taking Paris (putting off Vichy DE) tho.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/11/2020 3:37:50 PM >

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 5:28:20 PM

Taxman66

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I got side screwed, in not realizing Syria would become Axis Territory when Algeria did go down.
While the UK was strong in Libya and going to make Egypt at least hold out a lot longer, the Germans just transported a HQ, a ground unit or 2 and operated a bunch of air into Syria to backdoor me.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 5:57:15 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rannug61

Another idea... If Paris is empty(no allied unit) and French NM is under under a certain level(20%, 15% or 10%) this will make France want to surrender and then the Axis player has to decide if he wants to go "All of France" or go with Vishy.

This was one of the ideas we were discussing internally as well, simply linking a possible DE for France to decide to surrender or not based on its current and low NM. This way it is much harder for the Axis side to game the system.

An Allied player wouldn't even have to vacate Paris, just to keep things simple, and therefore there is nothing special to remember. For example let's say French NM reaches < 15%, they can essentially decide to surrender (have that option via a DE and it can be worded via an offer to declare Paris an open city for flavour) which then forces the Germans to decide on Vichy or not.

Typically this would be around the time Axis units are near or adjacent to Paris, and I guess the questions for us would be:

1) If there would still potentially be a way around that for the Axis side?

2) If this resolves the issue of GB committing to the defense of Algeria?

For example, would it allow a British player to hold back some resources until it is clear that the Germans are going for all of France? Or would we need to additionally make it a bit harder for the Axis to take Algeria to slow them down just enough until the decision is clear and then GB is safe to commit additional resources. This is why I asked about adding a few more obstacles to an Axis conquest of Algeria via an additional French unit event and an additional alternate Capital.

Of course we run the risk of making it too hard for the Axis as a result (so then the option is never entertained going forward), or that none of the above possibly changes anything as a GB player is still likely to have to commit to the defense of Algeria earlier than they would like (and before an Axis player makes a final decision on Vichy or not) if they have any chance of stopping the Axis player down there.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 6:45:53 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I got side screwed, in not realizing Syria would become Axis Territory when Algeria did go down.
While the UK was strong in Libya and going to make Egypt at least hold out a lot longer, the Germans just transported a HQ, a ground unit or 2 and operated a bunch of air into Syria to backdoor me.

Ahh yes I had that happen also. Need to keep Brit ships in ports until you can take the ports/cap.

I have to say when I started playing PBEM many of the seasoned players didn't seem to just want to easily win (which obviously they could do) it seemed liked they wanted to humiliate me using every loophole in the game. I don't think many of those guys still play (or the loopholes exist) but it does show why closing the loophole were are talking about is important.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/11/2020 9:24:04 PM

Rannug61

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That sounds good too me, Hubert! It's not easy to go for Algers so I would parhaps only have a garrison unit(if any axis unit is in Tunisia or Ageria), show up in Algers or Oran if Algers is occupied.
If the Axis in the end go for AoF this Garrison unit shouldn't be an extra unit to add the ones that arrives because of AoF.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 12:05:26 AM

Sugar

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Hi folks, I`m back (sort of)!

1. I`m not Fafnir; surprisingly enough I could keep my nick through all the different forums, so I was Sugar at Battlefront as well. Fafnir`s name at Battlefront was Ultim@gno, and at the german Panzerliga it was Isnogud iirc (the notorious Terif and our Amadeus were also part of the Panzerliga, but not me). I began to play PbEMs in SC not before Breakthrough came out; there were just 2 opponents I couldn`t ever manage to beat in more than 150 games, Fafnir was and still is one of them.

2. That`s why I quitted playing the tourney. Fafnir is undoubtly the best, since he also has beaten the other player I couldn`t beat in the Battlefront tourney in both games on either side.

3. To topic: the assumption is wrong. The only reason allied units are dissolved in Algeria and Vichy is: they were placed there. If they weren`t, they wouldn`t be dissolved, no matter the decision of the Axis player. If you want to anticipate a possible "All of France" move, simply wait until it comes into play, and don`t complain otherwise.

The reason why it became a viable option is a strategic necessity for the Axis: if they can`t get Spain through diplo anymore like it is after the latest "updates", they`ll have to get to Gibraltar (and get Spain) otherwise. Taking Vichy and then DoWing Tunesia and Algeria isn�t an option as well, because it probably moves Spain further to the Allies.

But that`s not even near the whole story: the Allies can ahistorically sink the RM in port, and with the newly supply rules North Africa can simply be blocked from any supply.

The obvious work around is to take all of France. And that`s why I stopped playing PbEMs.

All the mentioned changes were completely unforced; the whole community agreed the game to be perfectly balanced in V 1.05. The reason can be seen here, all the comments are one-sided without even questioning the assumption.

Even veteran players don`t understand the supply rules anymore, not to speak of newbies; with following assumptions also misleading:

[image][URL=http://www.bild.me]

[/URL][/image]

(AAR from an ongoing game of 2 SC-veterans) https://www.si-games.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30309&page=8

That`s ridiculous.

I`m back to Breakthrough SoE. Sad to say but it`s the better game right now, especially considering the things that were possible back then: Germany can field 10 tanks and 6 tac. bombers; there aren`t whole armies of heavy tanks and no med. bombers, with the right balance between tanks and bombers unlike now; and russian inf. doesn`t need to develop Inf. lvl 3 to compete.

Encirclements are possible! With one more action point to all units on a smaller map they are mandatory and effective. In WiE the mechanics had to be changed to do any damage to entrapped units, resulting in the fatal changes to the supply rules, instead of enabling units to reach the back of enemy lines like in SoE. Beside the ruined supply rules, the opportunity to comprehend operational manouevre warfare once attracted me to SoE and SC. Now HQs and their units are bound to cities and towns, with the distance between them not even reachable in one turn without costly motorization. That`s cabinet wars, not Panzer raids.

Many greetings and good luck to all of you, I`m out again.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 2:58:52 AM

stormbringer3

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What game is Breakthrough SoE? I've been searching that exact title and nothing has come up.
Thanks.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 4:18:59 PM

Elessar2

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I've already argued (in one of Crispy's threads) that movement allowances for units need to be adjusted upward, in both WiE [bigger map] & WaW [fewer turns]. Moving armor/mech up to +7 [Inf. Army to 4, all other Inf. to 5] can now allow for viable encirclements. What I was finding at Tank/Mech +5 was not only couldn't I zip around and cut things off, I often couldn't reach what seemed to be viable nearby targets, due to a combination of either weather, supply, rivers and/or ZoC. Just two of those in concert would typically be sufficient to prevent any viable mobility, basically wasting one whole turn for that unit.

I've also toyed with lowering costs for air units, with a concomitant reduction in attack/defense points across the board (maybe HQ's as well so as to allow chains). Italy for example early on can only afford its maritime bomber; give it a chance at buying 2 additional regular bombers (+ a fighter), park them all near Naples (+ anything the Germans can spare), and that would make any sane British player think twice about an Adriatic raid.

But SC as it is now assumes that there are no planes at all except in currently active and vital theatres, which is silly of course. If I can afford a cheap HQ to park there as well? Welp bring on the RN...

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 6:18:08 PM

James Taylor

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Its been a long time since someone tried this strategy with me, but at one time it was viable, made for a good battle, then it usually spelled doom for the Axis.

OK, some of the dynamics have changed, like Axis subs access to the Med, but that can be blocked. I'm going to imagine a scenario where the Allies(UK & France) negate this Algerian tactic.

From the initial French invasion, save the French airforce & an HQ and you can build 2 early UK tanks for Spring/Summer 40 deployment, I usually build these for UK in case of Sealion attempt.

When taking the UK expeditionary force off the continent, leave them on the water in transports, obviously you'll need to save them from the battle of France. Now you have an Algerian force that will not succumb to an Axis invasion, especially measly paratroopers.

Block the Axis amphibious potential with the entire French navy in the Med with the UK carriers for air cover along with land based fighters and if the Paras land, block their supply sources, you have a UK strat bomber as well.

It will be quite a battle but I've found that the Axis don't really stand a chance in USSR after this.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 7:42:34 PM

ericdauriac

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What game is Breakthrough SoE?

Regards

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/12/2020 8:12:08 PM

Fafnir

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It is the battlefront version of the classic strategic command WWI game.
The battlefront Breakthrough version contained the campain 'Storm over Europe' as bonus.
This was quite similar to the WWII war in Europe version.

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RE: All of France strategy - 4/13/2020 7:48:57 PM

Gilber

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Hi all,
I think one of the problems with all france strategy is that the axis player is forced to choose (Vichy or no Vichy) when france surrenders.
To keep this choice open as long as possible the axis player can decide not to take Paris in order to postpone France's surrender.
I could be wrong but the creation of Vichy should be a possibility offered to the Axis player at least for a certain time.

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