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RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/13/2020 11:03:28 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Careful Brazilian case/control study of Hydroxychloroquine halted because of dangerous arrhythmias in the high dose group (600 mg twice a day).

There was a convincing incidence of ventricular tachycardia

The patients still alive were converted to 450 twice a day. This is why you need the science instead of listening to prophets.

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-chloroquine-study-stopped-early.html?utm_source=notification


That would be absurd, and we'd actually have to make elected officials listen to expert medical opinion.



Based on past experience I'm going to guess you mean Trump. The thing is he DID listen to the advisers. There is an NIH study in the US. There is some value in elected officials offering some hope and keeping spirits up.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4561
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/13/2020 11:14:28 PM   
MakeeLearn


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‘Worst Is Over,’ Cuomo Says as 7 States Ally to Reopen Economy: Live Updates
1 hr ago


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/worst-is-over-cuomo-says-as-7-states-ally-to-reopen-economy-live-updates/ar-BB12yyxi?li=BBnbcA1



"The governors of six Eastern states will cooperate on reopening.

The governors of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Delaware said on Monday that they would work together to plan for reopening the region’s economies, schools and other important elements."

"Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo of New York said that health and economic officials from the six states were starting work immediately on developing strategies for easing restrictions that have brought much of daily life to a halt."

_____________________________








(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 4562
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/13/2020 11:23:47 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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NIH is funding a 10,000 pt serological survey (blood antibody test) on volunteers.

This should help determine what the true penetration of the disease is and offer insight into asymptomatic disease

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Post #: 4563
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/13/2020 11:47:42 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Careful Brazilian case/control study of Hydroxychloroquine halted because of dangerous arrhythmias in the high dose group (600 mg twice a day).

There was a convincing incidence of ventricular tachycardia

The patients still alive were converted to 450 twice a day. This is why you need the science instead of listening to prophets.

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-chloroquine-study-stopped-early.html?utm_source=notification


That would be absurd, and we'd actually have to make elected officials listen to expert medical opinion.



Based on past experience I'm going to guess you mean Trump. The thing is he DID listen to the advisers. There is an NIH study in the US. There is some value in elected officials offering some hope and keeping spirits up.


I was thinking more of Brazil and Bolsonaro.

As for Trump and his advisers, his comments on Covid 19 throughout March are well known. Evidently he had a change of heart or decided to listen at some point in mid-March.

As for elected officials keeping spirits up, I'd settle for qualified officials resolving the problem in the most effective manner. Would be far more soothing.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4564
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:40:39 AM   
pbiggar


Posts: 71
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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How under reported are death rates for COVID-19?
From the Economist.

Posting short article below without nifty graphs as the link is probably behind a paywall.

Gist of article is deaths by Cardiac Arrest in NYC has gone from 30 a day to over 200 a day. Calls to 911 for cardiac arrests have gone from around 80 per day to 315 perday.
It would be interesting to know if other cities also experience changes like this. We will have to wait until this is done to get a proper accounting of the deaths.


NO CITY IN America has been hit by covid-19 as hard as New York. By April 12th, according to official statistics, more than 6,000 people had died. This is over a quarter of all deaths in the whole country. There is some cause for hope: new reported covid-19 cases and deaths in the city both appear to be falling. Modelling by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation, a research group at the University of Washington, suggests that New York state’s covid-19 epidemic may have passed its peak.

But when the final death toll is reported, it may be bigger than current data would suggest. A recent report from WNYC and The Gothamist, two New York media outlets, notes that the city’s official covid-19 fatality statistics have until recently excluded those who died in their homes, and therefore were never diagnosed with the virus. Exactly how many people are missing from the tally is unclear. One clue comes from the number of people calling 911 about cardiac arrests, a known consequence of covid-19.

According to data from the city’s fire department, New Yorkers are making four times as many emergency calls about cardiac arrests as they did last year. The most recent figures show that about 200 of these heart-attack victims are being pronounced dead at the scene each day, up from around 30 this time last year (see chart). It is plausible that some of these people were not victims of covid-19. Had hospitals not been so overwhelmed, they might otherwise have sought care early enough in person at emergency rooms, when they had their first symptoms, before things got bad enough to call an ambulance. Even so, the figures suggest that New York City (and possibly other places) may be drastically underestimating the number of people killed by the novel coronavirus.

The city has since announced that it will revise its covid-19 death count to include people who are likely to have died from the disease but who were never formally tested. Mortality statistics from governments tend to be reported with a significant time-lag. Officials might not know the full public-health impact of covid-19 until months after it has faded.



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4565
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 2:44:57 AM   
Ian R

 

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Post #: 4566
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 3:53:33 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Careful Brazilian case/control study of Hydroxychloroquine halted because of dangerous arrhythmias in the high dose group (600 mg twice a day).

There was a convincing incidence of ventricular tachycardia

The patients still alive were converted to 450 twice a day. This is why you need the science instead of listening to prophets.

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-chloroquine-study-stopped-early.html?utm_source=notification


That would be absurd, and we'd actually have to make elected officials listen to expert medical opinion.



Based on past experience I'm going to guess you mean Trump. The thing is he DID listen to the advisers. There is an NIH study in the US. There is some value in elected officials offering some hope and keeping spirits up.

+1

_____________________________


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Post #: 4567
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 6:42:07 AM   
Encircled


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Shame both the UK and the US decided to take a different route for a couple of weeks.

if they hadn't (and I guess both had different reasons for doing it) then the death rate would be even lower than some of the more optimistic predictions in here.

Can't help noticing that the comments on media exaggeration appear to be limited to news organisations that are critical of the current US administration as well.

Its continues to be a very informative thread though



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Post #: 4568
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 6:51:15 AM   
Encircled


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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/apr/14/donald-trump-when-somebody-is-president-of-the-united-states-the-authority-is-total-video?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586845225

Trump has said "When someone is President of the USA, his authority is total"

Surely that isn't the case, I thought the individual states has powers to stop that sort of thing? (genuine question btw)

_____________________________


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Post #: 4569
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 8:04:22 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/apr/14/donald-trump-when-somebody-is-president-of-the-united-states-the-authority-is-total-video?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586845225

Trump has said "When someone is President of the USA, his authority is total"

Surely that isn't the case, I thought the individual states has powers to stop that sort of thing? (genuine question btw)


That may be a genuine question but that devolves into politics.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4570
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 8:32:05 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/apr/14/donald-trump-when-somebody-is-president-of-the-united-states-the-authority-is-total-video?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586845225

Trump has said "When someone is President of the USA, his authority is total"

Surely that isn't the case, I thought the individual states has powers to stop that sort of thing? (genuine question btw)


That may be a genuine question but that devolves into politics.
warspite1

Why so? It's just a question about what a President is empowered to do that could override what a state would normally have control of. Does the President (any President) have such powers? I can't see that is political.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 4571
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 9:02:56 AM   
mind_messing

 

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For Canoerebel, in relation to points raised previously on input control and accurate reporting.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52275823

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4572
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 9:04:39 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/apr/14/donald-trump-when-somebody-is-president-of-the-united-states-the-authority-is-total-video?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586845225

Trump has said "When someone is President of the USA, his authority is total"

Surely that isn't the case, I thought the individual states has powers to stop that sort of thing? (genuine question btw)


That may be a genuine question but that devolves into politics.
warspite1

Why so? It's just a question about what a President is empowered to do that could override what a state would normally have control of. Does the President (any President) have such powers? I can't see that is political.



It's a legal question if any, but the selective "no political discussion" exemption will be applied as there's a strong "the emperor has no clothes" vibe on this thread at times.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4573
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 10:13:47 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/apr/14/donald-trump-when-somebody-is-president-of-the-united-states-the-authority-is-total-video?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586845225

Trump has said "When someone is President of the USA, his authority is total"

Surely that isn't the case, I thought the individual states has powers to stop that sort of thing? (genuine question btw)


Well, and the constitutional checks and balances of the congress and courts.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 4574
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:14:14 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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From: Southern California
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Context people.

Taken alone, it is a ridiculous assertion but it wasn't meant to be taken alone. It was a response to a SPECIFIC question about lock-down rollbacks and governors making that call.

Is the criticism political? Hell yes it is. Mario the Pious (Cuomo) is the same guy who was bashing Trump and FEMA for not sending him 30,000 ventilators (which was WAAAY more than he needed and FEMA didn't even have that many) and now he wants to secede from the Union with New Jersey and Connecticut and Rhode Island decide when to reverse the Federal lock down order? Is he going to send the NYPD to bombard the Statue of Liberty? Do they have a flag yet? They will have to make one because the Stars and Bars are taken. I suggest the Yankee logo on a blue background.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 4575
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:15:41 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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Instituting a lockdown--not popular

Taking off the lockdown--winner, winner, chicken dinner!

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4576
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:28:19 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline
Confederate States of the Northeast Corridor

2020

Mario the Pious, President for Life






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4577
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:28:21 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Context people.

Taken alone, it is a ridiculous assertion but it wasn't meant to be taken alone. It was a response to a SPECIFIC question about lock-down rollbacks and governors making that call.

Is the criticism political? Hell yes it is. Mario the Pious (Cuomo) is the same guy who was bashing Trump and FEMA for not sending him 30,000 ventilators (which was WAAAY more than he needed and FEMA didn't even have that many) and now he wants to secede from the Union with New Jersey and Connecticut and Rhode Island decide when to reverse the Federal lock down order? Is he going to send the NYPD to bombard the Statue of Liberty? Do they have a flag yet? They will have to make one because the Stars and Bars are taken. I suggest the Yankee logo on a blue background.

Sorry, but even with the context it still doesn't cut it.

You would think on a country that takes great pride in its democratic traditions would produce a leader that's a little more in tune with those principles...

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4578
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:35:33 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Context people.

Taken alone, it is a ridiculous assertion but it wasn't meant to be taken alone. It was a response to a SPECIFIC question about lock-down rollbacks and governors making that call.

Is the criticism political? Hell yes it is. Mario the Pious (Cuomo) is the same guy who was bashing Trump and FEMA for not sending him 30,000 ventilators (which was WAAAY more than he needed and FEMA didn't even have that many) and now he wants to secede from the Union with New Jersey and Connecticut and Rhode Island decide when to reverse the Federal lock down order? Is he going to send the NYPD to bombard the Statue of Liberty? Do they have a flag yet? They will have to make one because the Stars and Bars are taken. I suggest the Yankee logo on a blue background.

Sorry, but even with the context it still doesn't cut it.

You would think on a country that takes great pride in its democratic traditions would produce a leader that's a little more in tune with those principles...


I didn't invent the National Emergency Act of 1976. That would be the Dem controlled Congress and signed into law by Gerald Ford.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act

Here is the actual law

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter34&edition=prelim

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4579
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:38:31 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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It DOES seem over-broad to me but nobody called me for advice in 1976 and even if they did they would have had to leave a message with my mom.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4580
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:43:40 AM   
Cap Mandrake


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There is remarkably precise language about Presidential authority on declaring an emergency over. I suspect the Congress was more worried about Andropov or Brezhnev getting "a bad cold" and the Rooskies nuking the US in 1976.

Pretty sure they never heard of bat soup back then.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4581
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:50:57 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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Grim projections have not yet materialized...

On Sunday, Sammy51 asked a series of questions predicated on his belief or assumption that NYC-type outbreaks would spread to other major cities in the US.

I replied mostly using the data from the Univ. of Washington projections indicating no other major outbreaks. Here's an Associated Press story this morning that delves into that: https://apnews.com/f68fa688b76c2853d22a3c765042f066




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/14/2020 11:54:06 AM >

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4582
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 11:59:44 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Sorry, but even with the context it still doesn't cut it.

You would think on a country that takes great pride in its democratic traditions would produce a leader that's a little more in tune with those principles...


Yes, yes, yes! We get that you don't like Trumpolini and take a supercilious air about those who voted for him.

By ra way, I propose a compromise. How about YOU vote for Glasgow City Council and let us vote for President? We promise to not say anything about parking enforcement and trash collection or the abridgement of internet speech and you let us try to find a vaccine and try to avoid sending the world into a 10 year depression by crushing a $22T economy?

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4583
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:09:40 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline
Local 450 bed hospital...19 proven or likely Covid-19 cases admitted. Entirely manageable considering essentially all of the elective cases are cancelled.

They now have the 5 minute test (they are getting about 20 kits a day from the manufacturer). These are mostly used for emergent admission who DON'T seem to have Covid (like women in labor or "elective" C-sections and likely cases who are potential candidates for clinical trials (study drugs) but need quick confirmation.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4584
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:15:49 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Sorry, but even with the context it still doesn't cut it.

You would think on a country that takes great pride in its democratic traditions would produce a leader that's a little more in tune with those principles...


Yes, yes, yes! We get that you don't like Trumpolini and take a supercilious air about those who voted for him.

By ra way, I propose a compromise. How about YOU vote for Glasgow City Council and let us vote for President? We promise to not say anything about parking enforcement and trash collection or the abridgement of internet speech and you let us try to find a vaccine and try to avoid sending the world into a 10 year depression by crushing a $22T economy?


In fairness, if you knew half of what GCC got up to I think you'd be hard pressed to keep quiet on the issue.

Didn't realise that you were engaged in discussions with the Fed and the DoT. Let me know how those go!

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4585
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:27:21 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
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De Blasio on coronavirus victims being buried in NYC parks: ‘Totally false’
April 6, 2020


https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/de-blasio-on-coronavirus-victims-buried-in-nyc-parks-totally-false/


"Mayor Bill de Blasio on Monday blasted claims that the city could temporarily bury coronavirus victims in New York City parks as “totally false.”

“There will never, ever be anything like quote on quote mass graves or mass interment in New York City — ever,” the mayor said on NY1."

_____________________________








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Post #: 4586
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:29:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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No, NYC Is Not Running Out of Burial Space Due to COVID-19
4.10.2020 9:48 AM


https://reason.com/2020/04/10/no-nyc-is-not-running-out-of-burial-space-due-to-covid-19/



"Unfortunately, a lot of professional media has been erring on the side of LOOK AT WHAT AMERICA HAS COME TO: THERE ARE SO MANY DEAD BODIES THEY HAVE TO START HIRING PEOPLE TO DIG MASS GRAVES."

"Kersten said the city hired contractors to add "two new trenches in case we need them.""


_____________________________








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Post #: 4587
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:31:37 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
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From: Northern England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Context people.

Taken alone, it is a ridiculous assertion but it wasn't meant to be taken alone. It was a response to a SPECIFIC question about lock-down rollbacks and governors making that call.

Is the criticism political? Hell yes it is. Mario the Pious (Cuomo) is the same guy who was bashing Trump and FEMA for not sending him 30,000 ventilators (which was WAAAY more than he needed and FEMA didn't even have that many) and now he wants to secede from the Union with New Jersey and Connecticut and Rhode Island decide when to reverse the Federal lock down order? Is he going to send the NYPD to bombard the Statue of Liberty? Do they have a flag yet? They will have to make one because the Stars and Bars are taken. I suggest the Yankee logo on a blue background.


Of course some of the criticism is political, but a hell of a lot of it appears to be justified.

UK/US did something different, and the result is, well, out there for all to see.

Whether you are a Democrat, Republican, Green, labour, Tory, Lib Dem (thats me!), SNP whatever, you want to make sure the lessons from this are learnt.

To do that, you have to acknowledge mistakes.

Now if anyone thinks both the UK and the US are doing that (certainly at government level) then I'm yet to see it.


_____________________________


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Post #: 4588
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:35:36 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Preliminary German Study Shows a COVID-19 Infection Fatality Rate of About 0.4 Percent
4.9.2020


https://reason.com/2020/04/09/preliminary-german-study-shows-a-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate-of-about-0-4-percent/



"One often-heard statistic is the "case fatality rate"—that is, the percentage of people diagnosed with a disease who will die of it. This afternoon that figure stands at 3.5 percent for COVID-19 in the U.S., but this rate is significantly inflated because it does not count asymptomatic cases or undiagnosed people who recover at home. What we really need to know is the infection fatality rate: the percentage of all the people infected who eventually die of the disease. That's what the German study attempts to do."

_____________________________








(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4589
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/14/2020 12:36:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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It looks like the US will end up with considerably fewer deaths per million than Italy, Spain, France, Belgium and possibly UK and Netherlands.

Encircled, the spotlight you're aiming on the US seems to be misdirected.

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Post #: 4590
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