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RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:33:58 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Trump to ease lockdown, saying virus cases have 'passed peak'
3 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-to-ease-lockdown-saying-virus-cases-have-passed-peak/ar-BB12HjgM?li=BBnb7Kz

"President Donald Trump vowed to unveil plans Thursday to reopen the world's top economy, following cautious moves in Europe, claiming the US had "passed the peak" of the coronavirus crisis despite a record daily death toll."


"The death toll has topped 133,000 with more than two million infected, according to an AFP tally -- with nearly 2,600 dying in the past 24 hours in the US alone.

But a bullish Trump told reporters his "aggressive strategy" against the virus was working and that "the data suggests that nationwide we have passed the peak on new cases"."

"He promised swift "guidelines" on reopening parts of the country, suggesting less-affected states could ease restrictions before May 1."



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(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4801
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:35:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?


(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4802
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:36:50 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		I hope that Captain Mandrake has got this right and its only a negotiation tactic of Trumps (and he has done it before, so that is my belief)

But the time for this is after this crisis is over, not during it!

Only way to sort this out so we can return to some sort of normality is a global effort.

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(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4803
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:39:15 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Dehumanizing.

Do you want to see the most advanced technology ever made?

Look in the mirror.


Amen to that, brother.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4804
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:43:30 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?




Which is why I asked if I was reading it wrong.

The virus doesn't care about the 4th amendment basically and I doubt it was a factor when it was written.

If you want to uphold the 4th amendment ahead of health advice, then that is 100% your prerogative.

But that also means that you are effectively going to kill more people.

Try looking at this without emotion, and like a scientist or even a historian would.

Because essentially that is why I'm trying to be dispassionate about it, so that I can look at it without getting overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the problem.



< Message edited by Encircled -- 4/16/2020 1:45:27 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4805
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:44:22 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		It’s the End of the World Economy as We Know It

2 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/its-the-end-of-the-world-economy-as-we-know-it/ar-BB12IfZJ?li=BBnb7Kz


"“There will be a rethink of how much any country wants to be reliant on any other country,” said Elizabeth Economy, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. “I don’t think fundamentally this is the end of globalization. But this does accelerate the type of thinking that has been going on in the Trump administration, that there are critical technologies, critical resources, reserve manufacturing capacity that we want here in the U.S. in case of crisis.”"




_____________________________


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4806
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:47:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		What are you talking about? I haven't mentioned the 4th Amendment. I have no idea what you're focusing on or talking about.

I'm certainly not going to kill more people. I think you've veered into a weird place. Probably you're confusing what I've said with what others have said and come to some flawed conclusions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?




Which is why I asked if I was reading it wrong.

The virus doesn't care about the 4th amendment basically and I doubt it was a factor when it was written.

If you want to uphold the 4th amendment ahead of health advice, then that is 100% your prerogative.

But that also means that you are effectively going to kill more people.

Try looking at this without emotion, and like a scientist or even a historian would.

Because essentially that is why I'm trying to be dispassionate about it, so that I can look at it without getting overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the problem.





< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/16/2020 1:48:55 PM >

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4807
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:47:30 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?





I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.


< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/16/2020 1:48:44 PM >

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4808
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:49:40 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		10 Good Things We Owe To The Black Death
Updated August 1, 2018

https://listverse.com/2015/01/28/10-good-things-we-owe-to-the-black-death/

10 Healthier People
9 The Perfume Industry
8 Hospitals
7 Sex Comedies
6 More Functional Homes
5 Predominance Of English
4 End Of Feudalism
3 The Middle Class
2 Freedom Of Thought
1 Humanism

----------------

Your mileage may vary... GREATLY.


< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/16/2020 1:50:15 PM >

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(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4809
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:53:49 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Flouting social distancing rules, Ivanka Trump flew to New Jersey for seder
Today, 10:21 am

https://www.timesofisrael.com/flouting-social-distancing-rules-ivanka-trump-flew-to-new-jersey-for-seder/


"President’s daughter has been at forefront of administration’s response to coronavirus, and repeatedly urged Americans to refrain from discretionary travel"

"US President Donald Trump’s eldest daughter, Ivanka Trump, has failed to follow the federal government’s guidelines against unnecessary travel, The New York Times reported on Thursday.

Trump, who serves as a senior adviser to her father and has led some of the administration’s efforts to combat the coronavirus pandemic’s economic fallout, has repeatedly urged Americans to stay home and refrain from discretionary travel.

But before the start of Passover on April 8, she traveled with her husband Jared Kushner, also a senior adviser to the president, and their three children from the couple’s home in the Kalorama neighborhood of Washington, DC, to the Trump National Golf Club Bedminster in New Jersey. "

_____________________________


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4810
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:53:50 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		This list of people who have stood up to the Chicoms is not very long. Truman. The Indians. The Vietnamese. The Taiwanese. South Koreans. The Tibetans and the Uyghurs and now Trump.

The Tibetans and Uyghurs got rolled. So did the Vietnamese but at least they tried.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4811
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:54:19 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?





I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.



Right, which is why I asked if I was reading it wrong!

FFS

You are looking for offence in absolutely everything, and that appears to be strangling any debate about anything.

And that includes how to move on from the current situation to something approaching normality.

I think the only way to do it is with mass testing, contact tracing, and probably with some sort of immunity certificate.

If you think you have a different idea, then by all means say so!

I want to hear about different plans, but ideally ones that don't involve just letting this burn itself out with as many deaths as that takes (that does not means that I think that is what you want, but it is the only alternative at the moment)

And I haven't seen one on here yet, which is why I'm asking.




< Message edited by Encircled -- 4/16/2020 1:55:29 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4812
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 1:57:34 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What are you talking about? I haven't mentioned the 4th Amendment. I have no idea what you're focusing on or talking about.

I'm certainly not going to kill more people. I think you've veered into a weird place. Probably you're confusing what I've said with what others have said and come to some flawed conclusions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?




Which is why I asked if I was reading it wrong.

The virus doesn't care about the 4th amendment basically and I doubt it was a factor when it was written.

If you want to uphold the 4th amendment ahead of health advice, then that is 100% your prerogative.

But that also means that you are effectively going to kill more people.

Try looking at this without emotion, and like a scientist or even a historian would.

Because essentially that is why I'm trying to be dispassionate about it, so that I can look at it without getting overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the problem.






Apologies, I took a quote from Capt mandrake about the 4th amendment and wrongly grouped you all in in it.

I meant that unfortunately I don't see any other way that doesn't involve more governmental powers to return us to normality anytime soon.



_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4813
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:00:11 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Show of hands. Who thinks the Chicoms are going to pay for the vaccine for the Third World when it is available?

I can hear the chorus now...."It's in the interest of the US to pay for it"

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4814
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:01:38 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		If its anyhelp, I don't think the US or UK will pay for it.

But if all the nations that can afford to help, help, then like all the other diseases that have been near eradicated, then this will go the same way.

_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4815
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:05:23 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Show of hands. Who thinks the Chicoms are going to pay for the vaccine for the Third World when it is available?

I can hear the chorus now...."It's in the interest of the US to pay for it"



Show of hands.... NOW SMILE!









Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/16/2020 2:09:15 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4816
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:05:55 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks, Encircled, for the clarification. That helps a lot.

Your apology also means a great deal.

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4817
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:09:02 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?





I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.



Right, which is why I asked if I was reading it wrong!

FFS

You are looking for offence in absolutely everything, and that appears to be strangling any debate about anything.

And that includes how to move on from the current situation to something approaching normality.

I think the only way to do it is with mass testing, contact tracing, and probably with some sort of immunity certificate.

If you think you have a different idea, then by all means say so!

I want to hear about different plans, but ideally ones that don't involve just letting this burn itself out with as many deaths as that takes (that does not means that I think that is what you want, but it is the only alternative at the moment)

And I haven't seen one on here yet, which is why I'm asking.






Absent a working vaccine how can we do anything but wait for it to run its course.

How does getting a negative test today qualify anyone for an 'immunity certificate' when they can contract it tomorrow?

You are grasping at straws.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4818
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:09:48 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Public Health is one of the few worthwhile activities of government but giving them more tools for surveillance is absolutely dangerous. The Patriot Act seemed like a good idea at the time but now we find out the boys in Washington are using the FISA court to spy on US citizens and bullshitting the FISA judges.

I don't trust them to put the WIFI chirp data back in the bottle when the pandemic is over.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4819
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:11:51 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Public Health is one of the few worthwhile activities of government but giving them more tools for surveillance is absolutely dangerous. The Patriot Act seemed like a good idea at the time but now we find out the boys in Washington are using the FISA court to spy on US citizens and bullshitting the FISA judges.

I don't trust them to put the WIFI chirp data back in the bottle when the pandemic is over.



The dance is just beginning.

_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4820
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:12:51 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Hans - misuse of words from me I think "immunity certificate" after someone has had it is what I meant.

Capt - I understand that, and do worry about it, but certainly in the UK it would be very hard to keep that on the statue books after the crisis is over.



_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 4821
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:15:42 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Coronavirus: Elderly Europeans Denied Treatment
April 11, 2020


https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15870/coronavirus-elderly-abandoned



"With well over a half-million confirmed cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in Europe, a growing number of regional medical authorities have begun issuing guidelines and protocols that call for hospitals to prioritize younger patients over those who are older.

In Italy and Spain, the two countries most affected by the coronavirus pandemic in Europe, doctors in overwhelmed intensive care units have for weeks been making life or death decisions about who receives emergency treatment. The new protocols, however, amount to government directives that instruct medical personnel effectively to abandon elderly patients to their fate."

_____________________________


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4822
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:24:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		An acquaintance involved in infectious diseases mentioned to me yesterday that there is essentially no way to test hundreds of millions of people (as in the US) and, even if you could, the test results would be worthless. Apparently, most of the testing being done and discussed is intended to flag those who have Covid...but doesn't distinguish between them and those who had it and got over it. Creating a usable test is hugely problematic. Testing hundreds of millions of people would take an incredible amount of time and expense.

That's not going to happen.

What's going to happen is that countries are going to begin easing restrictions carefully. Korea, Japan and China led the way. Denmark, Austria, Italy are in the process. The US and probably many others aren't far behind.

We've flattened the curve domestically. We can't maintain lockdown forever, despite concerns about further eruptions. We're going to have to rely on what we've learned, what we're learning, and quick detection and response to outbreaks. The fact that mortality seems to be focused in the elderly and co-morbid situtaions gives us some latitude in what we do.

I don't expect stadiums to be packed with people this summer. I don't expect movie theaters to re-open (unless serious countermeasures are in place and everything looks "okay"). I do expect countermeasures to begin easing fairly soon. It turns out that some states are serving as good pathfinders. Arkansans lead the way!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/16/2020 2:25:05 PM >

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 4823
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:28:09 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The problem with surveillance technologies is you NEVER get it back from law enforcement or even more dangerous government uses.

A good example is "cell tower spoofing". This is a device which actively tricks nearby cellphones into mistaking it for a phone company cell tower and intercepting calls. It's portable (lap top size) and the target doesn't have a clue. It was ushered in with promises to require a search warrant before every use but now hundreds of law enforcement agencies use them to spy on gang-bangers or even spy on their ex-spouses.

It's called an IMSA-catcher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4824
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:28:38 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		TAKING ITS TOLL Coronavirus graph shows US has LOW death rate compared to population numbers and Belgium is one of worst hit nations
5 Apr 2020

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11405610/coronavirus-graph-us-low-death-rate-coronavirus-belgium/


"However, data analysts have said that taking per-capita figures into account biases the numbers against smaller nations.

Out of 2million cases and 129,000 deaths worldwide, America accounts for more than 600,000 with 26,000 fatalities.

The new graphic however appears to show the US has actually relatively had an impact less severe than other nations when you take into account population."



_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4825
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:42:36 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		They're just figuring this out?

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 4826
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:46:46 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		I'd actually read the full article than rely on either the headline or MakeeLearn's selections from the article.

The reckoning is still very much ongoing on the human cost of all this.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4827
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:49:31 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd actually read the full article than rely on either the headline or MakeeLearn's selections from the article.

The reckoning is still very much ongoing on the human cost of all this.



Please read the real article always, and look at date.

_____________________________


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4828
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:49:32 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?





I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.



There's the argument of conflicting liberties.

Does your right to, say, liberty of movement or assembly, have more importance that someone else's liberty of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4829
RE: OT: Corona virus - 4/16/2020 2:51:06 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		AND STOP POSTING SO %^**&^ CLOSE TO ME!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/16/2020 2:52:17 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 4830
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