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Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF

 
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Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 4/27/2020 5:45:50 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Hi all,

It appears that some of the gun mounts in the CWDB are firing too fast, and we'd like to correct that. Rather than doing piecemeal updates of the ~500 gun mounts, we would prefer to get as large a data set as possible and do the changes in one sweeping motion.

Attached is a zip file containing a CSV with the database IDs, names and rates of fire of each mount in the CWDB. Note that RoF as used in the DB is the number of seconds between shots--therefore RoF of 30 results in 2 shots per minute (I know this seems weird but when we deal with some weapons that have many minutes between shots this is a more efficient way of measuring rate of fire).

Please take a look at the list and post below with anything that seems out of the ordinary, and at least a brief statement of why this is the case. The more detail you can provide, the better!

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Attachment (1)

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RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 4/27/2020 7:36:00 AM   
tiag

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/21/2018
Status: offline 		Can I make a suggestion?

I have noticed that it is not only the ROF that is not quite correct, but also the projectile speed. In most cases it is too slow, even slower than subsonic guided missiles.
Should we not try to update that right now? ROF and muzzle speed are characteristics not so far apart of guns ammounts and often found on the same source.
What do you think?

Regards

Tiago

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 2
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 4/27/2020 11:57:27 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Lets start with the RoF

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Post #: 3
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 4/27/2020 12:37:52 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tiag
I have noticed that it is not only the ROF that is not quite correct, but also the projectile speed. In most cases it is too slow, even slower than subsonic guided missiles.


That sounds like a possible flaw in the estimation of gun velocities. Can you please open a new thread in the tech support forum with a suitable save? Thanks.

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Post #: 4
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 4/27/2020 1:38:03 PM   
TitaniumTrout


Posts: 374
Joined: 10/20/2014
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Few that jump out in the first 100 entries.

ID - 22 ROF is called out as 20 rounds per minute, should actually be closer to 78 rpm.

The 12.7mm category shows quite a bit of variation. Some are 12 rounds per minute (2952, 2951), others are 60 rounds per minute (3073, 2130). The description is the same for example #2130, 12.7mm/50 MG Twin Turret which has 60 RPM, while #61 has a 12 RPM.

There's a lot of data here, I'm going to drink a solidarity beer tonight for the gentleman who put this together.


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Post #: 5
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/2/2020 2:35:03 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiag
I have noticed that it is not only the ROF that is not quite correct, but also the projectile speed. In most cases it is too slow, even slower than subsonic guided missiles.


That sounds like a possible flaw in the estimation of gun velocities. Can you please open a new thread in the tech support forum with a suitable save? Thanks.

I've got a bit of info and experience in this area...and I've got time to do this.

Questions..since I don't know..

a ROF of "1" means the gun will fire 60 times per minute? ROF of "60" is 1 shot per minute?

Can you use decimals? Like 0.5 for a high ROF or 60.5 to "fine tune" the ROF?

RE:Dimitris asking for a save showing gun projectile velocity errors..not sure how to do that as I can't click on the "shots" and check their velocity. Does the weapon entry have a velocity data point?

Lastly..I had started a thread a while back asking about large caliber gun fire range is capped a 1.5nm which is ridiculously short.....can we use this oppurtunity to change the max range here as well?

Or at a minimum put all the data in one place at one time so you can implement it as time allows. Just saying as I'm verifying ROF I usually have muzzle velocity and max range data right there as well...easier to add it now than hunt for it again in the future...

JMHO.

Let me know how I can assist...

thanaks

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Jeremy


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Post #: 6
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/14/2020 12:39:09 AM   
Pygmalion

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/14/2020
Status: offline 		Find attached an edited version of MountRoF.xlsx with updated data.

I've preserved the original data, so find the new ROF under nROF (measured in seconds between shots); that number is rounded from the RPM, which is included under RPM in case you want to override rounding. Where an RPM range was available (e.g. 50-75 RPM), I always used the highest value. I made exceptions for a few cases where historical performance was consistently recorded as significantly worse than the theoretical RPM. For artillery (mortars, howitzers, etc.) with rapid-fire and sustained ROF, I have used the sustained ROF. Notes are included after many entries, so you can track my declining sanity...ah, er, I mean, see useful explanatory info. Sources listed as well.

You'll note that many mounts are highlighted yellow. This indicates a mount which I did not check, either because it was obviously correct based on common knowledge (e.g. an MG with ROF 1) or because it represented a platform for which "rate of fire" doesn't really apply. Ballistic missiles, for example, don't have a "rate of fire." They just...go. With that said, it appears that various DB editors have assigned various arbitrary ROF values to these "unclassifiable" platforms: ROF 5 for missiles; 15 for silos, TEL, and SLMs; 2 for CIWS missiles (e.g. RIM), etc. This system is generally, but not always consistent: therefore, if you see a yellow-highlighted mount with an unsourced nROF and a note to the tune of "standardization," that's what I'm on about.

One thing I wasn't able to figure out was whether there is any pattern for changing ROF between single, double, etc. mounts. Does a 2x machine gun fire at 2x the rate? Does a 100rnd burst fire at ROFx100? Based on the original numbers, it didn't appear that there was any such system in place, so my numbers treat every mount as a single weapon; if I was wrong, lemme know.

A few mounts are highlighted red; these indicate weapons which I either could find no record of (typos in the mount names?) or which I could not find any ROF. If anyone can fill those gaps, that would be much appreciated!

One final note re: sources. Where possible, I have looked for reliable sources. However, for many weapons -- especially tank guns -- Wikipedia ended up being the most accessible source. Usually I wouldn't do this. However, I've found that with technical data, e.g. RPM, Wikipedia is generally reliable: the Wiki's greatest weakness is that it is inherently vulnerable to bias, but numbers don't change even as sentences are rephrased and inconvenient facts omitted. Moreover, people don't usually make up numbers: they generally find them somewhere. For what it's worth, as I discovered new sources, I cross-referenced some of the Wiki data and corroborated everything I checked.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/14/2020 7:20:18 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Hi,

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOriginalOverlord
I've got a bit of info and experience in this area...and I've got time to do this.

Questions..since I don't know..

a ROF of "1" means the gun will fire 60 times per minute? ROF of "60" is 1 shot per minute?

Yes.

quote:


Can you use decimals? Like 0.5 for a high ROF or 60.5 to "fine tune" the ROF?

No. When a gun can fire multiple rounds per second we typically bundle them as "bursts".

quote:


RE:Dimitris asking for a save showing gun projectile velocity errors..not sure how to do that as I can't click on the "shots" and check their velocity. Does the weapon entry have a velocity data point?

No, it is estimated on-the-fly based on a number of factors. This is why we need a specific save to see which of our assumptions are wrong.

quote:


Lastly..I had started a thread a while back asking about large caliber gun fire range is capped a 1.5nm which is ridiculously short.....can we use this oppurtunity to change the max range here as well?

Can you please point us to it? We never actively ignore requests for fixes/improvements, but with everything that is going on it can be easy for things to slip through.

Thanks!

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Post #: 8
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/14/2020 1:50:00 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline 		Dimitris:

large caliber AA thread

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4659714&mpage=1&key=�



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Jeremy


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Post #: 9
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/15/2020 3:46:03 AM   
zclark

 

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/12/2015
Status: offline 		I created a scenario testing two mounts, #2581 SU-76 SPG and #2864 SS-21a Scarab [9P129] TEL – Conventional against 12 buildings. The facilities used were #2068 – Armored Plt (SU-76) Egypt (4 guns with 140 rounds total) and #1754 – SSM Bn (SS-21-21a Scarab [9K79 Tochka] Tochka TEL Soviet Union (4 launchers each with a single missile). I also added a magazine to the SS-21 platoon with 60 missiles for a total of 64 missiles. All the above mounts have a RoF of 1.
Starting with the SS-21, 12 missiles were fired at the target in less than 10 seconds. Once the salvo of missiles impacted the target, another salvo of 12 missiles were fired in seconds. All 64 missiles were fired off in less than a minute. Next I had the SU-76 platoon engage. All 140 76mm artillery rounds were fired off in about 40 seconds.
Could the ROF be adjusted for all mounts that don’t have a belt,box magazine, pack of missiles, or a tube of rockets? Also, could a “readying time” be added to account for the SS-21 example? I imagine it would take several minutes to reload a missile of that size from a loader vehicle before being able to fire again.

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Post #: 10
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/15/2020 11:35:12 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOriginalOverlord

Dimitris:

large caliber AA thread

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4659714&mpage=1&key=�




Thanks. I saw it got derailed by requests that had nothing to do with max range. That's one of the things about dogpiling different items on a thread, the OP gets diluted.



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RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 5/25/2020 3:32:17 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zclark

I created a scenario testing two mounts, #2581 SU-76 SPG and #2864 SS-21a Scarab [9P129] TEL – Conventional against 12 buildings. The facilities used were #2068 – Armored Plt (SU-76) Egypt (4 guns with 140 rounds total) and #1754 – SSM Bn (SS-21-21a Scarab [9K79 Tochka] Tochka TEL Soviet Union (4 launchers each with a single missile). I also added a magazine to the SS-21 platoon with 60 missiles for a total of 64 missiles. All the above mounts have a RoF of 1.
Starting with the SS-21, 12 missiles were fired at the target in less than 10 seconds. Once the salvo of missiles impacted the target, another salvo of 12 missiles were fired in seconds. All 64 missiles were fired off in less than a minute. Next I had the SU-76 platoon engage. All 140 76mm artillery rounds were fired off in about 40 seconds.
Could the ROF be adjusted for all mounts that don’t have a belt,box magazine, pack of missiles, or a tube of rockets? Also, could a “readying time” be added to account for the SS-21 example? I imagine it would take several minutes to reload a missile of that size from a loader vehicle before being able to fire again.



Yes there is a discrepancy with the magazine to mount "reload" as well. It should take quite a while to reload those.

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Post #: 12
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 10/12/2020 6:39:18 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just out of curiosity, is this project still going on?

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Post #: 13
RE: Community Project: CWDB Gun RoF - 10/13/2020 4:25:05 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Yes, it's quite a large task.

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