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Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. John 3rd)

 
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Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. John 3rd) - 5/14/2020 1:04:30 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
Greetings all,

I am, as you can tell by my handle, a JFB. I have lent a helping hand off and on checking John 3rd's mods over the years, something I have enjoyed very much doing. This time I am going to play the latest version of Between the Storms Lite against the man himself, but as the Allies, not the empire of Japan. Problem is, I hardly know how to do what, when, or where.

This will not be a proper AAR, as I have neither the time nor the energy to do a proper one, but I would like to be able to ask questions and receive advice from those who know far more than I. It will mostly text, but I will try to be descriptive enough so that my meaning is clear (graphics work is not my forte).

I will ask John to drop by and say hello before I start describing what I see, and then we can begin. Thanks in advance for those that will help this clueless Allied player :)

< Message edited by Kitakami -- 5/14/2020 1:52:36 PM >


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!
Post #: 1
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 1:17:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
I am not familiar with the Mod but I wish you both luck.

After he checks out, maybe I will give some advice after I look at the scenario.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 2
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 2:56:02 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Thanks for inviting me Jorge!

I want to thank all the play-testers who helped get us to this re-launch of Between the Storms Lite and Heavy. The two of us played this Mod until late-Dec 41 so we have a good idea as how it works as well as the newly revamped layout and disposition of forces.

Best of Luck to Jorge and here is a Scenario Description for people unfamiliar with the Mod:

Between the Storms Lite 060
ALTNAV 1922-1941 (01/08/19)


These Mods are available for AE and have been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. The Treaty Years give way to the ramping up of World War Two. Japan grapples with the consequences of exiting the Treaty System and works to create a more balanced Fleet under the able leadership and foresight of Naval Minister Yamamoto Isoroku.

The Washington Conference

Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. A slightly higher 10:10:7 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan is agreed upon, allowing for several new outcomes:

1. The Ratio Change to 10:10:7:
a. The Japanese argue to keep the nearly complete battleship Tosa and the Amagi-Class battlecruiser Ishitaka. The Americans gain the fourth Colorado-Class USS Washington and the Battlecruiser USS Constellation (while scrapping the old battleships Florida and Utah and making the Wyoming into a gunnery training ship to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods.

b. Tonnages are left open for the British to build two 35,000 Ton battleships (Rodney and Nelson), the United States has 28,000 Ton available, and the Japanese have 18,000 Ton open for new Capital Ships. These warships are designed through the late-20s and are authorized for building at the time of the London Naval Conference. The United States builds a fast Battlecruiser (USS Chesapeake) armed with 4x3 12" Guns while the Japanese build a Light Battlecruiser named Chichibu (2x2 16.1" Guns).

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked with slightly increased carrier tonnage allowed bringing a slightly different creation to each flee'ts starting CV forces::
a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans convert USS Langley and USS Ely to CVEs and they begin the war at the Panama Canal. Japan has IJN Hosho and Ibuki.
b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed.

c. The Americans use all their Treaty tonnage to make create a solid CVL, after the failed design of the Ranger, named King's Mountain and Wasp becomes a 4th Yorktown-Class CV.

d. The Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku and Karasu while Soryu enters as a Hiryu-Class CV.


3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. Since no one had any real idea of where submarines were headed, this allows for further experimentation. The Americans build an additional Argonaut, Narwhal, and three Seaplane carrying subs. The Japanese add three Mine Layers and four large ocean-going Glen SS, and the French add another Surcouf.

The London Conference

Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). Japan is authorized to build a total of 14 CAs while the Allied Forces have 18 each.

2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. This brings no change to the Treaty since Japan was already at 70% in this category.

3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. The nations are allowed with ONLY these two vessels to place up to 8" guns on them. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville (3x3 6" and 18 Planes), GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies with 2x2 8" and 15 Planes), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi (3x2 8" and 27 Planes). These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs nor are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds two additional Myoko-Class CAs and completes the Mogami-Class as CAs instead of CLs. The oldest Japanese CAs (Kako and Furutaka-Classes) are downgraded to CLs with 6" guns replacing the 8" turrets.


Warship Construction AFTER the Treaty Years
Battleship Question and Decision
After abandoning the Treaty System, great discussion goes into the first new battleships to be built by Japan since the Nagato Class. The choices ends up centering on building two modern, fast conventional battlewagons as opposed to the mighty Yamato-Class. The prohibitive factors of cost, additional shipyard construction and time finally swing the decision to creating the Owari-Class (3x3 16.1" Rifles). While not sounding too exciting this change brings about a very interesting situation. Both Yamato and Musashi required their slipways to be expanded in length. The expansions were hugely expensive and took MONTHS to finish. By building the Owari-Class BBs the Japanese clear these slipways 12-18 months faster. The net result is two modern BBs (28 Knots) join the Kaigun BEFORE Pearl Harbor and their successors (two B-65 Class BCs) are either finished or near complete at war's start. Hoping to stay competitive vis-a-vis the Two Ocean Bill, two additional Owari-Class BBs are laid down just prior to the start of hostilities.

Command Cruisers
While debate rages on about the new battleship design, a new class of heavy cruiser is initiated. The proposed Tone-Class floatplane CA is discarded for a balanced, more capable cruiser. These large cruisers are better called command cruisers. The Niitaka-Class grows to over 15,000 tonnes and carries 4x3 8" guns, heavy torpedo armament, impressive secondaries, and strong floatplane complements. These fast, rugged cruisers are planned to be a six ship class. The initial two are complete at war's start, a second pair coming in late-1942, and a final pair in 1944.


The Rise of Admiral Yamamoto
As the Treaty Period ends, history takes another turn as Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku makes a greater contribution to the development of the Kaigun from 1936-1941. Yamamoto exerts a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for the war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways (Shanghai and Port Arthur) for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan dropping the 3rd and 4th Owari-Class Battleships for two improved Shokaku-Class CVs, a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. The highly unrealistic 5th Circle Plan is added in late-1941 and adds the 3rd and 4th Owari-Class BB back into building que. Despite Yamamoto's arguments this allocation of resources goes ahead with completion dates set in 1943-1944. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.

The Japan Naval Air Arm deploys its magnificent A6M2 and M3. Once the Zero is deployed, the Japanese wisely look at advanced prototypes elsewhere and decide to explore several second-generation fighter concepts. The Zero Team moves on to the Jack and Sam, while private contractors work on the George. Yamamoto fosters a sense of competition between the two teams to see who will win out as having a worthy successor to the A6M2 line. Additional streamlining and encouragement brings forward second-generation aircraft of other fields--Dive-Bombing, Torpedo-Bombing, and the creation of a small heavy bomber line.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.

Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!

Once war begins BTSL postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun. Four more improved Shokaku-Class CVs are ordered, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs is added. First class destroyers are accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense forces.

Allied Players
It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. Between the Storms brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, additional New Zealand and Australian ships, a French Squadron at Tahiti, the CL Eendract for the DEI, a stronger Force Z, a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV and Tangier Class AV into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.

Additionally, the Hepburn Board's recommendation to augmenting and expanding many Pacific Bases is heeded and work is sped up at Wake, Midway, the Aleutians, and in the South Pacific. While work has just begun in many ways, these advances pose a tougher problem for Japan if she moves east or southeast.

As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson, is sent south to protect the ships helping to develop Pago Pago into a forward operating base. This powerful Task Force serves to aid the convoy going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF). In a major development Winston Churchill decides, at the last minute, to add HMS Renown to Force Z to better demonstrate British 'resolve' reflecting the seriousness of Japan's overt aggression. Repairs on HMS Indomitable are rushed and this valuable carrier is just days away from assisting Force Z by providing invaluable air cover. Is it too little, too late?

How well can YOU do to use these new tools OR how well can you stop the Japanese Navy in its tracks as the Allies?

In addition to its own special modifications, Between the Storms has been made fully compatible with DaBabes and thus has more ship classes than stock, and many more of the smaller vessels comprising these classes for both sides: yard oilers, coastal minesweepers, auxiliary subchasers, patrol boats, minefield tenders, and many others designed to give a more robust and realistic feel to the development, population, capabilities, and logistical support of bases and rear and operational areas. Database elements have been modified to provide more realistic results for AAA (flak) combat, ASW combat, and certain minor, but nevertheless fun, aspects of naval combat, like land bombardment and coastal defense fire and new modifications to ATA combat. The modifications include lining-up and unifying data elements within certain fields, so that things interface more smoothly, as well as substantial changes to the data elements themselves.



Garrison requirements have been raised in China as well as India to, hopefully, better reflect the political environment of the regions.



If using the special road movement pwhexe.dat file this serves to slow movement in the CBI Theatre.


Japan deploys its few new ships to protect the Invasion TFs coming from Babeldoap and Cam Rahn Bay as the Kido Butai steams towards its rendezvous with destiny at Pearl Harbor…


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 2:56:45 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
I'm outta here.

BANZAI!!!

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 4
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 3:19:43 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
Ok, so that is the strategic situation. John mentioned we played the first month of the war, and I will say this: I got bloodied in ways I did not expect:

- Pearl Harbor was badly mauled. Only one BB sunk, but since John remained on station for 1-2 additional days, he destroyed over half of the fighters with sweeps. Had he continued for 1-2 more days, and then sent the bombers again, losses would have been heavy.

- The attack on Pearl was followed by attacks on Wake, Midway, and the Aleutians. Nothing the Allies can do to stop them, as the reorganization of the SNLF units into Brigades makes them potent assault forces:

--- Name -------------------- Location -- Preparation
--- 1st China Assault Div.--- Tinian ---- Canton Island 50
--- 1st Kure Assault Div.---- Babeldaob-- Ambon 50
--- 1st Maizuru Assault Div.- Saipan ---- Wake Island 75
--- 1st Para Assault Div.---- Peleiu ---- Peleiu 0
--- 1st Sasebo Assault Div.-- Saipan ---- Midway 75
--- 2nd China Assault Div.--- Paramushiro Paramushiro 0

All of them have 180-190 AV (max 190 I think). There are also the reinforcements:

--- 2nd Maizuru Assault Div.- Maizuru --- 12 Mar '42
--- 2nd Sasebo Assault Div.-- Nagasaki -- 05 Ago '42
--- 1st Yokosuka Assault Div. Yokohama -- 25 Sep '42

That is without counting the Naval Guard units, with a max AV of 60. So, whatever islands John chooses to invade, there is not much I can do in the beginning of the war.

< Message edited by Kitakami -- 5/14/2020 3:23:11 PM >


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 5
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 4:24:08 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
As a normally Allied player and with no BTS opponent, I will try and help you Kitakami.

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(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 6
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 4:30:57 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
Thanks to both, Nomad and Ranger Joe.

Waiting for John to check on the class for CAV Tokachi and Kushiro. for some odd reason they are CVLs with a 30 plane complement at start, and I think that should not be so. IIRC it should be 18... plus the 20cm rifle turrets, of course.

EDIT: Nevermind. Class and plane complement are correct. It is Allied CLVs that have smaller capacity.

< Message edited by Kitakami -- 5/14/2020 4:49:07 PM >


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 7
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 4:50:26 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
While I think the mod has merit from a fun/games standpoint, I hope some of the more ridiculous items have been tempered or removed in this version. From my view, I'm talking about:

--Carrier capable George...please say that's gone
--IJN CVLs that can convert to CVs, adding significant plane capacity (?)
--In original BTS, garrison requirements in China were HALVED. As if IJA needs more help there?
--Much, much more OIL in the Home Islands, including expandable OIL. Almost so much the SRA is not as much of a priority!

Just curious if a few of these were fixed

_____________________________


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 8
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 5:03:43 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
While I think the mod has merit from a fun/games standpoint, I hope some of the more ridiculous items have been tempered or removed in this version. From my view, I'm talking about:

--Carrier capable George...please say that's gone
--IJN CVLs that can convert to CVs, adding significant plane capacity (?)
--In original BTS, garrison requirements in China were HALVED. As if IJA needs more help there?
--Much, much more OIL in the Home Islands, including expandable OIL. Almost so much the SRA is not as much of a priority!

Just curious if a few of these were fixed


Ok...

-- George is still CV-capable, starting on 10/44 (N1K2-A).
-- The two CAVs can still convert to CVs, yes. Note their hulls are CA hulls, basically. They increase from a capacity of 30 to a capacity of 53, and the conversion takes 180 days, with 10/42 as the earliest start.
-- China is being worked on. It was almost complete, but there was a computer disaster. Garrison requirements will seriously increase. We will use a house rule requiring a prep of 50 before a place can be assaulted.
-- The oil was taken care of yes, and not only the oil. The fuel and supply situation is now a very important thing for the Japanese, if not THE most important. Without any changes from the starting situation, heavy industry climb at about 2k per day. No massive industry expansion for Japan if the player does not want to collapse his own economy.


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 9
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 6:40:58 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
The George is no longer CV capable. Only the A6 and A7 lines are CV capable fighters.

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(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 10
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 6:49:08 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
I stand corrected, Nomad is right. The remaining of the -A suffix threw me off. It should be -J. Will suggest it in the right thread.

_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 11
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 7:25:00 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
I have a suggestion for a possible change. Admiral Phillips was in Manila talking with Admiral Hart about consolidating the Asiatic fleet with Force Z when Pearl Harbor was attacked. That is why the Blackhawk AD and the combat ships were moving to the DEI. Have that meeting earlier and consolidate the fleet and take the support ships, transports, and the Dewey out of Manila. The small coastal freighters stay, maybe even the minesweepers stay, the subs stay but some are at sea with war loads. Allow a CAP (30%) that is not all up at once so they won't be caught refueling like what actually happened since the Japanese air attack was delayed due to fog on Formosa.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 12
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 7:41:42 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
Remove all fuel from the DEI using AKs as well as excess supplies when the time comes for that. Have your tankers remove excess oil to Australia to feed those refineries, fuel as well. Hail out resources if there is no excess fuel. to hail. On top of resources and fuel, the APs can load supplies in the passenger compartments.

Buy out the cheap Filipino units and send them to India for garrison duty. Evacuate at least part of every Dutch units. Even if you don't have the specific Dutch devices to rebuild them, the support troops and any engineers are universal and they can increase the support level at a base as well as any engineers working.

Fly engineers to Milne Bay to start working on a Port.

Buffaloes of all types work nice at 20,000 feet with the dive bonus against Zero escorts.

Don't forget to use NIGHT naval searches.

Consider using the American subs with those excellent Mark 14 torpedoes to lay minefields at suspected invasion sights. Lay the mines the same turn as the expected invasion so the mines won't be detected that turn, unless a ship decides to detect them.

Consider have the Allied torpedo bombers with 50+ experience pilots to try torpedo attacks at night. Or even bomb attacks. Less AA and probably no CAP.

Use the PT Boats during storms and low visibility, if nothing else they can slow down unloading and maybe the Japanese will play bomber ships. Although I have sunk Japanese ships with just the fifty caliber machine guns.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 13
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 8:32:42 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
I have a suggestion for a possible change. Admiral Phillips was in Manila talking with Admiral Hart about consolidating the Asiatic fleet with Force Z when Pearl Harbor was attacked. That is why the Blackhawk AD and the combat ships were moving to the DEI. Have that meeting earlier and consolidate the fleet and take the support ships, transports, and the Dewey out of Manila. The small coastal freighters stay, maybe even the minesweepers stay, the subs stay but some are at sea with war loads. Allow a CAP (30%) that is not all up at once so they won't be caught refueling like what actually happened since the Japanese air attack was delayed due to fog on Formosa.


I do not think this will be possible, as the deadline for changes is long past. It would have been interesting, though.


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 14
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 8:38:52 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
Remove all fuel from the DEI using AKs as well as excess supplies when the time comes for that. Have your tankers remove excess oil to Australia to feed those refineries, fuel as well. Hail out resources if there is no excess fuel. to hail. On top of resources and fuel, the APs can load supplies in the passenger compartments.

***** Yes. I prefer the fuel to sink, than to fall into Japanese hands. I also turn off the refineries so, if my defense is good, there is a lot of oil, but very little fuel.

Buy out the cheap Filipino units and send them to India for garrison duty. Evacuate at least part of every Dutch units. Even if you don't have the specific Dutch devices to rebuild them, the support troops and any engineers are universal and they can increase the support level at a base as well as any engineers working.

***** Had never considered this. If I have the PP, I will. There are far too many things to do with them though... like sending Chinese troops to Northern Burma.

Fly engineers to Milne Bay to start working on a Port.

***** Another thing I had not considered.

Buffaloes of all types work nice at 20,000 feet with the dive bonus against Zero escorts.

***** Oh... this is my style, definitely. Will do!

Don't forget to use NIGHT naval searches.

***** Will not forget!

Consider using the American subs with those excellent Mark 14 torpedoes to lay minefields at suspected invasion sights. Lay the mines the same turn as the expected invasion so the mines won't be detected that turn, unless a ship decides to detect them.

***** Mine laying timing is another thing I had not considered. Thank you!

Consider have the Allied torpedo bombers with 50+ experience pilots to try torpedo attacks at night. Or even bomb attacks. Less AA and probably no CAP.

***** Allied torpedo bombers are so short-ranged at start that I am seriously offloading them and set them to train until better planes are available.

Use the PT Boats during storms and low visibility, if nothing else they can slow down unloading and maybe the Japanese will play bomber ships. Although I have sunk Japanese ships with just the fifty caliber machine guns.

***** I agree PT boats ought to be used aggressively. The trick is, I think, to know when to disband them so you can use them later.

Thanks TONS!


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 15
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 8:43:54 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
Remember that in this mod the MK-14 has an upgrade 4/42, so it is not as bad as stock.

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(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 16
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 10:15:31 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
Remember that in this mod the MK-14 has an upgrade 4/42, so it is not as bad as stock.


I think I will let most of the fleet boats roam... but will have some used for mining purposes.


_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 17
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 11:33:20 PM   
RangerJoe


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The torpedo bombers that I was thinking about are the Vildebeasts (Gnus) and the Swordfish. Before you are doing that, put them on night shift now so they will fly at night the first thing. Set the range according for the target that you want. Torpedo bombers with set for Naval attack with torpedoes but with no torpedoes available will attack with a full load of bombs. Think of torpedo bombers with torpedoes or bombs attacking the assault transports before they start unloading . . .

Send torpedo bombers from Hong Kong to Clark field or Manila.

If you do that, set up some night bombing for ports, if allowed. That way you might be able to keep the fires burning.

Even 2Es on Naval or Low Naval with decent pilots at night to avoid the Zeros.

The moment that he has ground troops at a base but does not control the base, LRCAP that base at high altitude and send in sweepers.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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― Julia Child


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 18
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 11:49:39 PM   
RangerJoe


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Halt all Chinese reinforcements except for support squads. That is, if the units have a lot of disabled squads. They need the undisabled support to undisable the other devices that are disabled. If you can get a buyable unit trashed, it will be cheaper, then get it to India to muscle up. Putting big Chinese Armies with Commonwealth armour and artillery is always a winner. All that you need is ONE division to survive for the buyable Army to be formed.

Don't needlessly change the preparation for Chinese units as well and the low experienced Indian units. The sooner that they get to 100 prep points, the sooner that their experience and morale will improve. Who cares about their morals, however.

If you can save the Dutch MTBs with DCs (unless they were changed) they are good to attack minisubs with. There are three of those normally, so don't upgrade them to lose the DCs.

Use the HDMLs as admiral's yachts, that way the combat ships can be repaired without losing the TF number and leader.

Send the Dutch floating repair docks to safety now. They will be useful later.

Some of the small dutch ships can be converted to other things. Some can even fly a float plane. Don't needlessly lose those.

Fly out parts of the Guam and Wake Island units so you won't have to pay to buy them back. Same thing for the buyable Filipino units, send just a fraction somewhere else so that can survive to be bought out cheaply if they use common devices.

Consider relocating the Chinese air force, then buy it out to send to India for massive training as well as waiting for better aircraft.

Disband any Dutch air units that might be overrun so you won't have to pay PP to get them back. They may never have better aircraft than the P-40E and the B-25C, but they can be used later against cut off Japanese forces.

When you ship air units by sea, break the units up into thirds and remove the pilots. That way, you would only lose 1/3 of the unit if the freighter is sunk and no pilots.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 19
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 11:49:46 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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The torpedo bombers that I was thinking about are the Vildebeasts (Gnus) and the Swordfish. Before you are doing that, put them on night shift now so they will fly at night the first thing. Set the range according for the target that you want. Torpedo bombers with set for Naval attack with torpedoes but with no torpedoes available will attack with a full load of bombs. Think of torpedo bombers with torpedoes or bombs attacking the assault transports before they start unloading . . .

***** Ah.... yes... the Mersing gambit truly becomes a gambit with this.

Send torpedo bombers from Hong Kong to Clark field or Manila.

***** I had never considered the Philippines. Interesting idead.

If you do that, set up some night bombing for ports, if allowed. That way you might be able to keep the fires burning.

Even 2Es on Naval or Low Naval with decent pilots at night to avoid the Zeros.

***** I have been considering training 2E planes for low-level naval attack. Hmm...

The moment that he has ground troops at a base but does not control the base, LRCAP that base at high altitude and send in sweepers.

***** If I have the planes, definitely. Sadly, in our trial game it was not easy. He did send lightly/unescorted IJN bombers against my TF... and CAP was ready for them. I must have destroyed 200+ IJN 2E bombers in the first month. I am certain he is not making the same mistake again.


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Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 20
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 11:57:59 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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Halt all Chinese reinforcements except for support squads. That is, if the units have a lot of disabled squads. They need the undisabled support to undisable the other devices that are disabled. If you can get a buyable unit trashed, it will be cheaper, then get it to India to muscle up. Putting big Chinese Armies with Commonwealth armour and artillery is always a winner. All that you need is ONE division to survive for the buyable Army to be formed.

***** Chinese units to India is an option yes. But House Rules say I have to pay the PP to move them out, so it won't be too many.

Don't needlessly change the preparation for Chinese units as well and the low experienced Indian units. The sooner that they get to 100 prep points, the sooner that their experience and morale will improve. Who cares about their morals, however.

***** Yes, this is my standard practice.

If you can save the Dutch MTBs with DCs (unless they were changed) they are good to attack minisubs with. There are three of those normally, so don't upgrade them to lose the DCs.

***** I wil definitely take a look at this.

Use the HDMLs as admiral's yachts, that way the combat ships can be repaired without losing the TF number and leader.

***** I sometimes prefer to accept the loss, because some of my opponents do track TF numbers.

Send the Dutch floating repair docks to safety now. They will be useful later.

Indeed! Perth is a safer place... hopefully!

Some of the small dutch ships can be converted to other things. Some can even fly a float plane. Don't needlessly lose those.

***** I will check this out too.

Fly out parts of the Guam and Wake Island units so you won't have to pay to buy them back. Same thing for the buyable Filipino units, send just a fraction somewhere else so that can survive to be bought out cheaply if they use common devices.

***** I usually do this with Aus' Lark Force.

Consider relocating the Chinese air force, then buy it out to send to India for massive training as well as waiting for better aircraft.

***** The sending to India is a great idea.

Disband any Dutch air units that might be overrun so you won't have to pay PP to get them back. They may never have better aircraft than the P-40E and the B-25C, but they can be used later against cut off Japanese forces.

***** Agreed. Standard practice, and not only with the Dutch.

When you ship air units by sea, break the units up into thirds and remove the pilots. That way, you would only lose 1/3 of the unit if the freighter is sunk and no pilots.

***** Hmm... interesting tactic. Never thought of doing it, but it does have its merit.

Thanks!


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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 21
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/14/2020 11:59:05 PM   
Kitakami


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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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I am waiting for John to do turn 1. It will take at least a couple of days. Please be patient :)

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(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 22
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 12:35:32 AM   
RangerJoe


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No problem for me. I just thought that you would like a few pointers. Now, if you want to know how to buy out units on the cheap . . .

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 23
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 1:24:01 AM   
Lowpe


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In this game Perth is not safe.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 24
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 1:25:52 AM   
Kitakami


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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In this game Perth is not safe.


In that case I'll need to find a safe port. Capetown?


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Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 25
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 2:26:23 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
Melbourne?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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― Julia Child


(in reply to Kitakami)
Post #: 26
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 2:27:42 AM   
Lowpe


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Probably any of the very southern Oz ports, below the line of death.

New Zealand is good too, but far away.

In this game you really need to look hard at very far away places. John likes to take distant islands to screw with your arriving reinforcements and send carrier division out like Jeb Stuart. I seriously never could understand how he consistently gets away with it.

If I played John the first two years I would use my subs merely to secure my perimeter and give warning on his Carrier Escapades. I would never put my carriers at risk during the full moon, and keep them safely behind a catalina search screen knowing he likes to jaunt 16 hexes to launch carrier strikes. Sub perimeter, Catalina perimeter, other land based air perimeter, cap traps for his darting carrier strikes. Build bases from LA, Karachi, and New Zealand, Southern Oz out sequentially. Destroy industry and supply and fuel at every opportunity. One exception, I would build as big a air bridge as I could afford to supply China and fight hard there on the ground even going so far as to use bombers to ferry supply in along with transports. Look to create a mountain fortress in western China. That threat would probably force him to change whatever plans he had and fight for eastern India which then would cause him to try and take all of India. Definitely buy out the 5 Chinese Units for India and get them marching on day 1. Mass your CVs and look to ambush one of his carrier jaunts after it has been bled a bit. Use your Brooklyn class CLs as deep raiders in those big blue areas between Honshu and his forward perimeter. Think about abandoning Ceylon, at the very least get the decent AA off. My thoughts, ymmv.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/15/2020 2:51:46 AM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 27
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 3:32:03 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Omaha class are good raiders with their torpedoes. Put them at low aggression so they don't stay long with a surface combat task force.

When you get enough trained Fletcher with flak up grades, they work pretty good as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 28
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 12:02:32 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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***** Knowing your enemy is one of the greatest advantages you can have. Thank you for the insights on John's playing style.

Probably any of the very southern Oz ports, below the line of death.

***** May I ask what the like of death is? Melbourne, RangerJoe's suggestion, sounds like a good one.

New Zealand is good too, but far away.

***** Knowing John, he might go for an invasion there.

In this game you really need to look hard at very far away places. John likes to take distant islands to screw with your arriving reinforcements and send carrier division out like Jeb Stuart. I seriously never could understand how he consistently gets away with it.

***** JEB Stuart has to be my favourite Southern General after Stonewall Jackson. Having said that, I have seen that John can be... careless. I need to play to that weakness.

If I played John the first two years I would use my subs merely to secure my perimeter and give warning on his Carrier Escapades. I would never put my carriers at risk during the full moon, and keep them safely behind a catalina search screen knowing he likes to jaunt 16 hexes to launch carrier strikes. Sub perimeter, Catalina perimeter, other land based air perimeter, cap traps for his darting carrier strikes.

***** That is THE question, isn't it? Are subs a tactical or a strategic tool? In this Mod the USN has THREE floatplane carrying subs. Where should I send them?

Build bases from LA, Karachi, and New Zealand, Southern Oz out sequentially.

***** I have been making a list of available engineers both at start and as reinforcements for the first year or so. I am impressed! Japan gets so few and they are so bad...

Destroy industry and supply and fuel at every opportunity.

***** Scorched earth, yes. I try to do that in the DEI. The more expensive the repairs for Japan, the better my long-term fate.

One exception, I would build as big a air bridge as I could afford to supply China and fight hard there on the ground even going so far as to use bombers to ferry supply in along with transports.

***** Agreed. I am even considering sending UMSC transport units to Ledo.

Look to create a mountain fortress in western China. That threat would probably force him to change whatever plans he had and fight for eastern India which then would cause him to try and take all of India.

**** With our home rule that Japanese and Chinese can't assault unless they have a prep of 50, I think that front will slow down. Too bad the China tweaks were not ready for this game.

Definitely buy out the 5 Chinese Units for India and get them marching on day 1.

***** I always do. I also do not merge them until the turn before combat, so they can get more reinforcements overall.

Mass your CVs and look to ambush one of his carrier jaunts after it has been bled a bit.

***** Would Sidney be a good place to keep the CVs?

Use your Brooklyn class CLs as deep raiders in those big blue areas between Honshu and his forward perimeter.

***** Brooklyn-class, eh? Hmm... interesting thought. The one categry where the Allies hold clear superiority is in the number of cruisers. Raiders are warranted, I agree.

Think about abandoning Ceylon, at the very least get the decent AA off.

***** Abandon Ceylon? Hmm... had not considered that. Where would be the best location for that AAA?

My thoughts, ymmv.

***** Thank you very much! :)


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Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 29
RE: Walking in Allied Shoes (BtS Lite - Kitakami vs. Jo... - 5/15/2020 12:04:05 PM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
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From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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Omaha class are good raiders with their torpedoes. Put them at low aggression so they don't stay long with a surface combat task force.

***** IN this mod, the Omahas can be converted into CLAAs. I think that is a use I am more comfortable with. Other CLs will have to raid in their stead.

When you get enough trained Fletcher with flak up grades, they work pretty good as well.

***** Thanks! Will write this down.


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Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 30
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