Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV10

The R-class spent most of their careers in the Home Fleet escorting convoys. IIRC, HMS Ramilies was temporarily sidetracked from screening a convoy of Canadian soldiers to help hunt for the Bismarck, but it was for a very short period of time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV10

The R-class spent most of their careers in the Home Fleet escorting convoys. IIRC, HMS Ramilies was temporarily sidetracked from screening a convoy of Canadian soldiers to help hunt for the Bismarck, but it was for a very short period of time.

I think Revenge was with a convoy when Scharnhorst and Gneisenau came calling. The latter two quickly decided to follow the orders not to take risks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: splashell

I've been thinking about these 4R's since it's coming timely in my game. The role of these old and slow dreadnoughts during WW2 is indeed well and historically known as gun platforms against shore/invasions targets. But it is only after the Allies go on the offensive, which may take quite a while on average. What are they used for in the meantime?

In this era it's hard to think of many good uses for them, but what if a good use in itself would be to reinvent the old "fleet-in-being" doctrine? It requires absolutely no moving anywhere, they can just sit in port and do their job, acting as an deterrent for attack/invasion efficiently. They can't run, so it is a very high risk proposition to send them anywhere where they could potentially need to run from, so just keep them in safe places. If the enemy invades with a crushing force and manages to sink them (either by air or sea) then fine, but I think the defender has a very high chance of inflicting crippling losses to the enemy aircraft and attacking ships as well.

I mean in practice, if you own a highly valuable forward base that you want to keep control of, and consider at least a moderate chance to get attacked/invaded by the enemy, you can stock this base full of fighters, enough supplies, fuel, aviation and naval support. The fighters will pretty much negate the air threat for the base (and the BBs), and the slow BBs there pretty would make the enemy think very hard, provided he has recon, whether he really wants to fight a surface carnage on terms where his air superiority is mostly or totally negated. In case the enemy attacks with massive force, you may lose these BBs yes, but they can still potentially inflict very heavy losses on the attacker. In fact I think this would be a very good bang for buck using them. Japan gets 10 BBs and even the slowest might outclass the British R's, but in the end it's better that the 4 R's go down fighting on a pretty level field like they were meant to, rather than keep them doing nothing in Capetown waiting for eventual offensives. So in all the plus side in this is that they won't need to run anywhere, and can potentially go down fighting while inflicting heavy losses on the attacker, given enough air support and perhaps supporting cruisers/DD TFs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

It always struck me as odd that the Rs were built in the first place. The QEs were the best BBs of their time and should likely have just been replicated instead of doing the Rs. That said the Brits were all over the place with naval design at the time. BCs as ships of the line was pretty much put to rest at Jutland but still got Repulse, Renown and Hood. Which didn't end well for 2 of the three once WW2 rolled around. And then the oddly designed Courageous class, which ended up being converted to carriers, which made them useful.

And then in WW2 tank design in the UK was all over the place. Too many designs and dispersion of resources. But perhaps there was just a desire for diversity and change (like my wife ).

IIRC Churchill had made a pitch to take some turrets off the Rs to lighten them / decrease their draft so that they could sail into the Baltic. The guy was a great war leader but he came up with some 'out there' ideas at times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.

As someone already posted - it was price that caused the switch to a more economical platform. The price of the QE class vessels shocked the government and although it wanted more ships with 15" guns, it did not want to pay for the speed and range of the QEs. The RN only needed BBs for North Sea duty at that point, and the main purpose was to bottle up the High Seas fleet, not chase it down. Hence the decision to build five "R" class rather than fewer QE's.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers...

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Almost sounds like 400 years of tradition unhampered by change. 'Twould have been better to repeat the QE's with 4 ships with more powerful engines instead of 5 with slower.

As someone already posted - it was price that caused the switch to a more economical platform. The price of the QE class vessels shocked the government and although it wanted more ships with 15" guns, it did not want to pay for the speed and range of the QEs. The RN only needed BBs for North Sea duty at that point, and the main purpose was to bottle up the High Seas fleet, not chase it down. Hence the decision to build five "R" class rather than fewer QE's.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers...

Ummmm, Warspite was bought by those Malay Pirates? WOW!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers...

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy.

BTW, only four QEs were ordered by the Admiralty, but the rulers of Malaya bought a fifth one as a gift to Britain (in return for Britain guaranteeing their rule, no doubt). Try and guess which QE was bought by those SEA rulers...

I have seen it suggested that a sixth QE was projected - Agincourt, a name used for a Brazilian ordered
BB, Rio de Janeiro, purchased by Turkey in December 1913, and originally christened Sultan Osman I, taken over by the RN in August 1914.

Greger says the QE Agincourt was authorised in the 1914 budget, but was cancelled at the end of August 1914.

The RN did take over the Rio de Janeiro build and finished it as Agincourt, so that was one unexpected addition to the fleet. Agincourt had the most major caliber guns ever put on a warship - 14X 14" guns IIRC. She probably could not fire them all simultaneously without breaking something! I also think she would blow up easily if anything penetrated her armour which would not have been strong (because so much weight had been devoted to guns and ammo).