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request for additional info on research screen - 5/29/2020 7:46:07 PM   
Dalwin

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		The research system in this game is different from most. While this is not a bad thing per se, there are some traps for newer players to stumble over.

What I would like to see is that for each available research option it shows how many of your current units would benefit from an upgrade there. This would, for example, stop newbie German players from ever investing a single point in the more defensive anti-tank infantry option.

This would be different if it were possible to switch an existing unit (cheaply) to a different template. As the system currently stands, many of the research choices are simply bad, with no redeeming factors whatsoever.
Post #: 1
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/29/2020 8:47:41 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Well investing in Anti-Tank can be considered worthless for the Germans but when the Russians will come, you will perhaps consider the contrary.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Dalwin)
Post #: 2
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/29/2020 9:09:11 PM   
Dalwin

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Not really. It does nothing to improve the many units you have already built at game start on the assault template. It takes a large investment to keep something current. Is your plan to neglect your many offensive infantry units in favor of a few defensive ones? Or perhaps you will neglect something like subs or planes to provide enough research points to be keeping current two types of infantry. Like I said, this research system is different from most. It is not like HOI where you can add a battalion of shiny new and improved anti-tank guns to an existing infantry unit. You cannot even convert directly a unit from the assault template to anti-tank.

Even if you did make sacrifices to have gotten anti-take to a decent year, the stat difference is marginal. It is better to have just pushed your existing units further to get a better version. And, yes, this is even more true once you face the Russians.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 3
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/29/2020 9:13:20 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Well this is perhaps under work. Read this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4703164

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Dalwin)
Post #: 4
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/29/2020 9:23:48 PM   
Dalwin

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Alvaro does hint that something might change, but with no idea as to what he is thinking I would not read too much into that comment.

Personally I find the entire research system flawed, but with the info that I requested in the original post, it would be easier to make the best of a marginal situation.

As it stands, the only use I make of that antitank infantry as Germany is for security divisions. Since I don't invest in the mostly redundant process of researching both infantry types, AT stays at '39. That means my security divisions will be cheaper to make and points will not then get spent on upgrading them (which would be counterproductive).

< Message edited by Dalwin -- 5/29/2020 9:28:19 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 5
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/30/2020 3:06:16 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I like the research the way it is now. Has the big board war game feeling of advancing the tech chit in a certain area along the track.

(in reply to Dalwin)
Post #: 6
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 5/30/2020 4:41:44 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Anti-tank reduces retreat chance which is very important later in the war. A -6% chance to retreat from an AT infantry vs an assault infantry when the opponent has a 40% chance to force you to retreat is quite a lit. It means every 12 hexes he should take vs assault he only takes 10 hexes. This is one of the strategic strategies of the game that isn't on the surface. You exchange one medium of combat for another. And in the end if the Axis have enough points and hold on to 1 city they win.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Ostwindflak)
Post #: 7
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 6/2/2020 12:50:35 PM   
Dalwin

 

Posts: 337
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Anti-tank reduces retreat chance which is very important later in the war. A -6% chance to retreat from an AT infantry vs an assault infantry when the opponent has a 40% chance to force you to retreat is quite a lit. It means every 12 hexes he should take vs assault he only takes 10 hexes. This is one of the strategic strategies of the game that isn't on the surface. You exchange one medium of combat for another. And in the end if the Axis have enough points and hold on to 1 city they win.

I am not saying that anti-tank is worthless for everyone. I am saying that researching it as the Germans is an extremely inefficient investment of research points since 100% of their starting infantry is assault. Even if they did spend all the points to research AT, it would do zero to help their existing infantry and would only affect new units built as AT.

This research system has mostly false choices.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 8
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 6/2/2020 4:16:00 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		This depends on what your goals are as the Axis.

If you decide you want to go 41 Barb or BUST!!! Then screw AT tech and go for assault and breakthrough trying to cripple the USSR to the point they can't recover.

But if you want to go for a Spain-Med strategy then late in the war the AT tech has incredible advantages as you are going for a victory point win.

Advancements might need adjusting but aren't false choices. It takes time to balance these.



_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Dalwin)
Post #: 9
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 6/3/2020 1:02:57 PM   
ericdauriac

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 9/14/2016
From: Limoges
Status: offline
quote:

Anti-tank reduces retreat chance


Is it the "guns" that reduce retreats or is it Anti-Tank Advancements?

(in reply to Dalwin)
Post #: 10
RE: request for additional info on research screen - 6/3/2020 2:35:18 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		It's the guns in a unit.

It starts showing the different in 1943-1945. When 1945 rolls around Unit with anti-tank reduces the retreat chance by 4%. Add on the Anti-tank specialty and that is 8%.

-2% per factor.

I was looking in the rules and I failed to mention this apparently. I will update them.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ericdauriac)
Post #: 11
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