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ZPK - 5/30/2020 10:07:21 PM

Lawless1

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From: Maryland but now living in SC
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What is the best height for ASW by MAD/RADAR equipped ZPK

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RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 8:54:13 AM

Alfred

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Why do you think a different height for the blimps compared to the height of heavier than air aircraft is appropriate?

Alfred

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Post #: 2

RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 9:58:49 AM

tacticon

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Joined: 7/18/2002
From: Arizona
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Lawless1, I thought it was a good question. MAD is nothing more then a very, but very short range radar. I don't believe that their is a separate subroutine in the code for it. The higher you go the better the search tend to be. 6000 is popular for searches in low flak areas. The lower you go the better the bombing accuracy. 1000 feet would be best for patrol, floats and medium bombers for accuracy. If I have two groups patrolling the same area I like to set one to 1000 and one to six. If I have one group then I compromise at 3000. That's my preference, I sure others have their own.

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Tacticon

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RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 11:31:41 AM

kbfchicago

Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lawless1

What is the best height for ASW by MAD/RADAR equipped ZPK

I don't use them for ASW missions. Use ZPKs on search missions, which expose the subs. I've always flown them at 6K. Prior posts have talked to that height being optimal for search. Especially with out danger from flak, as note above.

To sink the subs dispatch a small TF or two consisting of three SCs, DDs, PFs, et.al. which tend to be abundance on the West Coast once you've found them.

Happy gaming,

Kevin

(in reply to Lawless1)

Post #: 4

RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 1:22:46 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon
MAD is nothing more then a very, but very short range radar.

MAD is not a short range radar. It is a magnetic anomaly detector, and indicates to an operator when the aircraft transits a metal object (such as a sub) that has disturbed the earth's magnetic field. It is effective when the aircraft is flying at very low altitude. As to the aircraft, it makes no difference if it is a blimp, a seaplane or a regular aircraft, the equipment works the same. All would have to operate at really low altitude (in REAL LIFE) to be effective. Loiter time is a plus (which means that the blimp just might be more effective in real life but not necessarily in game terms).

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 5/31/2020 1:27:47 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 4:31:01 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon
MAD is nothing more then a very, but very short range radar.

MAD is not a short range radar. It is a magnetic anomaly detector, and indicates to an operator when the aircraft transits a metal object (such as a sub) that has disturbed the earth's magnetic field. It is effective when the aircraft is flying at very low altitude. As to the aircraft, it makes no difference if it is a blimp, a seaplane or a regular aircraft, the equipment works the same. All would have to operate at really low altitude (in REAL LIFE) to be effective. Loiter time is a plus (which means that the blimp just might be more effective in real life but not necessarily in game terms).

Absolutely correct!Think of it as a giant metal detector. Range is measured in feet or yards . Even modern MAD is very short. And it's measured in a straight line. The lower and slower the aircraft , the deeper the sub may be and still be detected. If you are realistic for the time , 200 feet would be a good height. Beyond that , I'm not saying.

Modern MAD is frequently used by helo's as they can go very low and slow. Blimps could do lower and slower.

Another thing about MAD. In modern use (1950's to today) it's used not so much as search device , as a targeting device. As in "three MAD's and employ a weapon" generally ensures a kill.

I have no idea how the game depicts it. Hopefully Alfred will steer us right , as he usually does (Bless him!).

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RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 4:45:08 PM

AW1Steve

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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Why do you think a different height for the blimps compared to the height of heavier than air aircraft is appropriate?

Alfred

Actually , in real life , blimps were more effective as they could virtually stop and come nearly to the surface of the water. Unlike a airplane , they were unlikely to hit anything, and if they did the damage would be negligible. An aircraft moving at over a hundred miles an hour hitting anything would probably be fatal. So would an airplane doing a tight turn at 100 feet (trying to avoid collision with something on the surface). An example of this , in my time in airborne ASW (1977-2000) If we were MAD-trapping we were restricted to 200 feet in clear , daylight . But at night , a minimum of 500 feet was permitted. In a place like the North Sea (at the time crammed with offshore drilling platforms) the minimum safe operating altitude could be 800 feet or higher.

My 1st base was NAS South Weymouth in 1977. It had been a blimp base , and I was able to hear many "Sea stories" from former blimp crews about actually "touching down" on the water , and just how incredibly effective they could be. One old chief told me a story of "lassoing a periscope" and following the bouy attached. While I have some doubts about the story , it is almost credible. Imagine an aircraft that could almost hover over a sub , and by shutting the engines for a short time , be totally noiseless.

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RE: ZPK - 5/31/2020 6:56:53 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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Alfred addressed MAD a few years ago. The info was vague, like it having a chance to raise the D/L of a sub but no specifics on how to increase that chance.

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Post #: 8

RE: ZPK - 6/1/2020 12:53:45 AM

tacticon

Posts: 83
Joined: 7/18/2002
From: Arizona
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Aw1Steve and Dr. Hal, Of course, it not a radar in real life. I was only meaning what it is like in AE. Did you guys not read the line "I don't believe that there is a separate subroutine in the code for it." If anyone has specific information about how AE has separate subroutines for MAD apart from the other aircraft radars, I would love to hear it. The database just lists it as weapon type: aircraft radar. So, that's how you should use it. In real life, flying lower is better for MAD then flying at 20K. In AE it just doesn't matter. In game terms, it has a range of 1 and an accuracy of 10, so it is not a particularly good asset at that. (It terms of the game, not a "real life" evaluation).

As you are both very experienced and respected players, I too would like to hear how you use your ASW assets in the game.

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Tacticon

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

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Post #: 9

RE: ZPK - 6/1/2020 1:33:38 AM

Lawless1

Posts: 316
Joined: 9/6/2015
From: Maryland but now living in SC
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Thanks everyone for your responses

Alfred, I was uncertain about MAD, is it really useful in detecting subs, is there are limitations or is it like RADAR, not being able to see a/c out to the full range of
of the RADAR. Am aware that both devices will increase the detection level.

Dr Hal response was more to what I was wondering. Real life tactic don't always translate into game tactics.

To everyone else, I am using the ZPK as ASW around SF, LA and San Diego. Alt is 3k, FP and PBY are searching night and day from 1k to 6k. PC and DD are conducting ASW around all WC ports.
All patrol a/c fix wing or blimp will rotate between Search, ASW. Once subs threats lesson, some will be switch to NavAtk, and for the FP for sweep, NavAtk

_____________________________

Two types of ships, targets and submarines
Death from below

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Post #: 10

RE: ZPK - 6/1/2020 2:50:44 AM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon

Aw1Steve and Dr. Hal, Of course, it not a radar in real life. I was only meaning what it is like in AE. Did you guys not read the line "I don't believe that there is a separate subroutine in the code for it." If anyone has specific information about how AE has separate subroutines for MAD apart from the other aircraft radars, I would love to hear it. The database just lists it as weapon type: aircraft radar. So, that's how you should use it. In real life, flying lower is better for MAD then flying at 20K. In AE it just doesn't matter. In game terms, it has a range of 1 and an accuracy of 10, so it is not a particularly good asset at that. (It terms of the game, not a "real life" evaluation).

As you are both very experienced and respected players, I too would like to hear how you use your ASW assets in the game.

Tacticon, the reason I spoke up was not to chastise you but to refocus the image you were creating. Many folk who read this forum and play this game were not in any military let alone a navy and thus would take your remarks at face value. I was just clarifying things, no offense was meant. The game doesn't realistically portray every weapons system or every capability, but it does it's best in the abstract. MAD is abstracted. So I guess your statement is, in game terms, somewhat like radar, is sound but only in game terms. I did read your line about code, but I still felt the need to amend your statement. I think it prudent on all our contributions to the forum to ensure that our input is clear and backed up by research if needed. Yes I'm an academic, however I don't think such standards would go amiss here as well as in any classroom. People here are learning too.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 6/1/2020 2:52:30 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: ZPK - 6/1/2020 10:25:33 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon

Aw1Steve and Dr. Hal, Of course, it not a radar in real life. I was only meaning what it is like in AE. Did you guys not read the line "I don't believe that there is a separate subroutine in the code for it." If anyone has specific information about how AE has separate subroutines for MAD apart from the other aircraft radars, I would love to hear it. The database just lists it as weapon type: aircraft radar. So, that's how you should use it. In real life, flying lower is better for MAD then flying at 20K. In AE it just doesn't matter. In game terms, it has a range of 1 and an accuracy of 10, so it is not a particularly good asset at that. (It terms of the game, not a "real life" evaluation).

As you are both very experienced and respected players, I too would like to hear how you use your ASW assets in the game.

I generally use asw assets , like anything else in the game as in real life. An example is in training night fighters. Alfred once told me that there is no difference to the game between day and night training. I train at night , simply because in real life they would have. I tend to group ships and aircraft by country , but with some exceptions . To me , it's just a easier way to not be accused of playing "gamey".