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Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it

 
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Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:18:22 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline 		I was reading the reviews and the manual and the forum for this game and spotted https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4823511

In the bottom left hand hand corner of the first graphic there you can see a truck mounted infantry unit. The NATO symbol on the counter, however, is not the one for motorized infantry but is instead the one for armored infantry.

That's a blatant error. Those two types of infantry are not the same thing, nor even close to it. This blatant error has convinced me that the game does not pay attention to basic military unit functions and differentiation, so I won't be buying it.

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

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Post #: 1
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:26:02 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		The game uses a simplified set (low number) of NATO counters.

I can imagine it might not be everybody's cup of thee.

That having been said it is on one of my nice-to-add lists to increase the number of actual nato counters used.

Best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 2
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:27:15 PM   
Saros

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/18/2010
Status: offline 		Well in this case it's a militia unit so it's a hodgepodge of makeshift armored cars, trucks, riflemen, probably a few towed arty pieces and the exact composition changes from unit to unit so the game tries to approximate it.

(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 3
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:29:15 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		What's the NATO symbol for Arachnids? That needs to be in there!

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Post #: 4
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:41:47 PM   
Shards

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 8/25/2015
Status: offline 		Maybe




Attachment (1)

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 5
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 4:55:39 PM   
Saros

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/18/2010
Status: offline 		Hang on, what if the trucks were armored!

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Post #: 6
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:08:57 PM   
koplinsol

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/23/2020
Status: offline 		This...this is a joke right?

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Post #: 7
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:30:02 PM   
tucsonbandit

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		its supposed to represent many things, sometimes mixed groups, my god. I had until this moment simply assumed those were armored trucks/vehicles anyway and did not take them to be soft covered. Maybe they are.

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Post #: 8
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:37:24 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

That having been said it is on one of my nice-to-add lists to increase the number of actual nato counters used.


Vic, if you promise to fix that then I'll buy the game.

Everything you need to do that is here: https://www.awl.edu.pl/images/en/APP_6_C.pdf

< Message edited by Steely Glint -- 6/4/2020 5:38:12 PM >

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

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(in reply to Saros)
Post #: 9
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:40:05 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tucsonbandit

its supposed to represent many things, sometimes mixed groups, my god. I had until this moment simply assumed those were armored trucks/vehicles anyway and did not take them to be soft covered. Maybe they are.


Graphic clearly shows soft covered motorized infantry, NOT mech infantry. Trust me, this is essentially the same difference as between a black bear and a grizzly bear.

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to tucsonbandit)
Post #: 10
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:43:17 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: koplinsol

This...this is a joke right?


Mislabeling things in a game where information is king is no joke. In a fishing game, is it okay to label a bass as a trout? Of course not. This isn't okay either.

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to koplinsol)
Post #: 11
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:44:31 PM   
koplinsol

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/23/2020
Status: offline 		Got it, not a joke.

_____________________________

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent

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Post #: 12
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:55:41 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline 		For the benefit of a lot of you: NATO military symbols are clearly defined, and for a reason. The are designed to convey the necessary and correct information about a military unit in a quick glimpse, and they succeed at that, but only when used properly. Otherwise, they are just decoration and a waste of space.

From NATO:

"This publication provides a standardized, structured set of graphical symbols for the display of information in military systems and applications. A standard method for symbol construction is provided using common building blocks which shall be used to create current symbol sets as well as for creating sets that may be needed...In command and control of military operations, the reality of the displayed operational picture, its correct assessment and the decision-making speed are decisive factors. In joint military operations, it is imperative to have a common language clearly understood among all users. Graphical representation of objects, commands, movements and additional information (including alphanumeric text and colours) are observed and readily understood faster than merely text alone. This is valid even more for a user population with a widely different background of language, component, knowledge and experience. A common standard of joint military symbols is therefore an important element to enhance efficiency and contribute to success in joint operations." (italics mine)

Source: NATO JOINT MILITARY SYMBOLOGY APP-6(C)


< Message edited by Steely Glint -- 6/4/2020 5:58:00 PM >

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 13
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 5:59:46 PM   
springel


Posts: 363
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Groningen, NL
Status: offline 		Literary unplayable!

(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 14
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:00:36 PM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: koplinsol

Got it, not a joke.


Nope. Dead serious. Oh, and FYI: violence is the first resort of those who are really good at it. I should know.

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to koplinsol)
Post #: 15
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:06:14 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		Not many things leave me speechless.....

Congratulations to the OP

You managed it.

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Post #: 16
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:07:33 PM   
Simulacra53


Posts: 632
Joined: 5/16/2015
Status: offline 		The people behind Decisive Campaigns not paying attention to basic military unit functions and differentiation...

Go wash your mouth with soap.


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Post #: 17
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:10:39 PM   
Astyreal


Posts: 37
Joined: 10/2/2010
Status: offline 		Too many MREs, methinks


(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 18
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:17:04 PM   
larsieman1988

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint


quote:

ORIGINAL: koplinsol

Got it, not a joke.


Nope. Dead serious. Oh, and FYI: violence is the first resort of those who are really good at it. I should know.


But you didn't beat anybody up in this situation? So how is this your first resort? It seems in this particular situation going on the internet and making a forum post is your first resort?

I'm confused.

< Message edited by larsieman1988 -- 6/4/2020 6:18:49 PM >

(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 19
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:21:14 PM   
larsieman1988

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline 		Game has lasertanks in it.

Doesn't buy the game cause counters are not based on real life counterparts.

Makes a forum post about it telling the community.

So much cool.


(in reply to larsieman1988)
Post #: 20
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:21:24 PM   
koplinsol

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/23/2020
Status: offline 		This a threat?

_____________________________

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent

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Post #: 21
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:23:43 PM   
larsieman1988

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline 		nah man, he's just letting everybody know he's really skilled at being violent man.

Also, his dad can beat up all our dads. Just letting ya know.

(in reply to koplinsol)
Post #: 22
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:34:26 PM   
OldSarge


Posts: 642
Joined: 11/25/2010
From: Albuquerque, NM
Status: offline 		So the Galactic Republic thousands of years from now is still using NATO symbols! Cool!

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You and the rest, you forgot the first rule of the fanatic: When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.
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Post #: 23
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:34:55 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		A Marine should be able to adapt to the situation on the ground and expect imperfection. I would recommend doing what most people would do with a first day of release game, which is report bugs and fixes that you want. Give Vic a clear, calm, professional report, and carry on.

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Post #: 24
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 6:59:54 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint
In the bottom left hand hand corner of the first graphic there you can see a truck mounted infantry unit. The NATO symbol on the counter, however, is not the one for motorized infantry but is instead the one for armored infantry.


Speaking as a bonfide expert, if you're going to make a case, get your facts straight.

That is the symbology for a mechanized infantry element. Not armored by STANAG.

That reference, and individual nations, have versions. In some versions, and in some nations, that symbol is perfectly capable of symbolizing motorized elements... such as Russian Motorized Rifle echelons... assuming they are not enemy on the operating picture.

Nice troll.


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Post #: 25
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 7:00:22 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Well you are really missing out


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

I was reading the reviews and the manual and the forum for this game and spotted https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4823511

In the bottom left hand hand corner of the first graphic there you can see a truck mounted infantry unit. The NATO symbol on the counter, however, is not the one for motorized infantry but is instead the one for armored infantry.

That's a blatant error. Those two types of infantry are not the same thing, nor even close to it. This blatant error has convinced me that the game does not pay attention to basic military unit functions and differentiation, so I won't be buying it.



_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to Steely Glint)
Post #: 26
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 7:41:45 PM   
tucsonbandit

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		how would you represent a formation of half soft covered trucks, half armored personnel carriers? or 1/3 armored recon, 1/3 soft covered trucks, 1/3 armored personnel carriers? or 1/4 armored recon vehicles, 1/4 mishmash of civilian transportation vehicles, 1/4 armored personnel carriers, 1/4 motorized infantry?

is it really wrong to use mechanized infantry for any of these?



< Message edited by tucsonbandit -- 6/4/2020 7:46:20 PM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 27
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 7:48:16 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tucsonbandit

how would you represent a formation of half soft covered trucks, half armored personnel carriers? or 1/3 armored recon, 1/3 soft covered trucks, 1/3 armored personnel carriers? or 1/4 armored recon vehicles, 1/4 mishmash of civilian transportation vehicles, 1/4 armored personnel carriers, 1/4 motorized infantry?


I'm thinking infantry symbol with this inside it.


(in reply to tucsonbandit)
Post #: 28
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 7:58:01 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tucsonbandit

how would you represent a formation of half soft covered trucks, half armored personnel carriers? or 1/3 armored recon, 1/3 soft covered trucks, 1/3 armored personnel carriers? or 1/4 armored recon vehicles, 1/4 mishmash of civilian transportation vehicles, 1/4 armored personnel carriers, 1/4 motorized infantry?

is it really wrong to use mechanized infantry for any of these?




It is not wrong.

The symbols are not so definitive. They can contain much more data, modifiers, affiliations, operational condition, and might even include evaluation and reliability ratings for the information shown -- among many other available details.

If you really want to play around, try this link-- (commercial product, made by a swiss company)

https://www.map.army/symbol


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/4/2020 7:59:08 PM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 29
RE: Blatant error, decided not to buy the game over it - 6/4/2020 8:00:02 PM   
kosmoface

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OldSarge

So the Galactic Republic thousands of years from now is still using NATO symbols! Cool!


I love this comment.

(in reply to OldSarge)
Post #: 30
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