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Air and Naval Units? - 6/5/2020 7:27:58 PM

Frostwave

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From: Canada
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Hi was wondering why I cant find any naval or aircraft units. I understand there isn't a lot of water but would still like to see some naval units in the future. As for lack of aircraft it doesn't make any sense to me. There is missile technology, jet packs, ICBM's but one of the most important military achievements is not being developed or utilized. Will aircraft be getting added I hope or am I just not finding them? Thanks in advance loving the game so far but lack of aircraft is kind of destroying the immersion for me since I cant logically come up with an explanation for why they wouldn't be in the game.
Thanks in advance.

< Message edited by Frostwave -- 6/5/2020 7:28:46 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/5/2020 7:49:28 PM

OldSarge

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For now there are none.

Vic has indicated that he is planning on the possibility of some type of air and naval units in the future, probably via DLC.

_____________________________

You and the rest, you forgot the first rule of the fanatic: When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.
Jeffrey Sinclair, "Infection", Babylon 5

(in reply to Frostwave)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/5/2020 7:57:25 PM

Frostwave

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Good to hear this game so far is amazing and glancing through the manual I see there is a lot more depth and mechanics to still discover and enjoy. Lack of air was really disappointing though since it didn't make any sense to me considering some of the advanced tech in the game.

(in reply to OldSarge)

Post #: 3

RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/5/2020 8:25:01 PM

OldSarge

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The one problem I can think of is that you could generate a world where the atmosphere, if there is one, is too thin to allow usual lift mechanics to work.

So, at least for aircraft, there would have to be models that could operate on worlds with thin or non-existent atmospheres. Since we'd probably want to see some type of tech tree for flight and aircraft models, that would have to be well thought out.

_____________________________

You and the rest, you forgot the first rule of the fanatic: When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.
Jeffrey Sinclair, "Infection", Babylon 5

(in reply to Frostwave)

Post #: 4

RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 1:21:57 AM

zgrssd

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I think naval supply, warfare and invasions may the most immediately important part.

As those do not exist, there is a limit on how much water there can be on any planet. earth surface is 70% water. And depending on how you count, 3-6 continents. If there are not even token naval supply, invasion and defense, there can never be landmasses seperate by oceans. Or islands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldSarge

The one problem I can think of is that you could generate a world where the atmosphere, if there is one, is too thin to allow usual lift mechanics to work.

So, at least for aircraft, there would have to be models that could operate on worlds with thin or non-existent atmospheres. Since we'd probably want to see some type of tech tree for flight and aircraft models, that would have to be well thought out.

Every thing short of the moon type has a amtosphere. It still has a windspeed and a atmosphere content table. Windtraps should still work filtering water form the "atmosphere".

I am unsure how much the lower gravity will offset the less dense atmosphere. But the game also does not account for the distance to and brightness of the star affecting solar energy generation. So it might come down to a binary "yes/no" question, same was tectonic activity.

(in reply to OldSarge)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 2:02:56 AM

zgrssd

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As for "flight in low gravity", we do have some figures for mars concepts:
- as there is no relevant oxygen, unaided jet engines will not work. You would have to use a propeller or bring your own oyxgen. But given that humans survive on those planets and fuel burning engines work, I doubt the oxygen is an issue.
- air density is "about 1% that of earth"
- gravity however, is only 1/3 that of earth

On earth, a airplan needs about 100 km/h to compensnate for gravity by using lift
On mars, it would be around 1200 km/h - or Mach 1*.
Every practical use of air power has to add weight. Especially weapon use. And the only way to compensate for it, is making the plane (especially the wingspan) larger. Wich in turn makes the plane easier to detect and shoot down.
Only baloons and Airships seem viable at all. But they do still have to compete with Orbiters for Mars.
I guess we could say: Airplanes are barely worth it on earth. So unless we got a comparable Atmosphere density/lift to gravity ratio, it would simply be not worth the effort.

*Mach speed is measured relative to the speed of sound. Based on atmosphere density, that figure changes. So there is no single speed that defines "mach 1".

Again, I do think Naval would work better. It would also suffer from lesser water density/gravity ratio, but not as badly as airplanes do.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/10/2020 2:06:15 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 9:02:02 AM

kneecaps

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

As for "flight in low gravity", we do have some figures for mars concepts:
- as there is no relevant oxygen, unaided jet engines will not work. You would have to use a propeller or bring your own oyxgen. But given that humans survive on those planets and fuel burning engines work, I doubt the oxygen is an issue.
- air density is "about 1% that of earth"
- gravity however, is only 1/3 that of earth

On earth, a airplan needs about 100 km/h to compensnate for gravity by using lift
On mars, it would be around 1200 km/h - or Mach 1*.
Every practical use of air power has to add weight. Especially weapon use. And the only way to compensate for it, is making the plane (especially the wingspan) larger. Wich in turn makes the plane easier to detect and shoot down.
Only baloons and Airships seem viable at all. But they do still have to compete with Orbiters for Mars.
I guess we could say: Airplanes are barely worth it on earth. So unless we got a comparable Atmosphere density/lift to gravity ratio, it would simply be not worth the effort.

*Mach speed is measured relative to the speed of sound. Based on atmosphere density, that figure changes. So there is no single speed that defines "mach 1".

Again, I do think Naval would work better. It would also suffer from lesser water density/gravity ratio, but not as badly as airplanes do.

I think it is only airplane in concept on most worlds. They would be closer to 'planetary flyers' of sorts. Wings would be of little use. The fuel could easily be mono propellants or even just a counter for a fuel/oxygen mix. The lack of oxygen for 'burning' things in a future sci-fi setting shouldn't be viewed as a stopper.

I think things like 'aircraft' and 'ships' will be interesting but only so long as they bring improvements to the game play, they would have to fit well into the existing systems and so forth. Having stuff for stuffs sake doesn't appeal to me personally.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 7

RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 11:05:31 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kneecaps

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

As for "flight in low gravity", we do have some figures for mars concepts:
- as there is no relevant oxygen, unaided jet engines will not work. You would have to use a propeller or bring your own oyxgen. But given that humans survive on those planets and fuel burning engines work, I doubt the oxygen is an issue.
- air density is "about 1% that of earth"
- gravity however, is only 1/3 that of earth

On earth, a airplan needs about 100 km/h to compensnate for gravity by using lift
On mars, it would be around 1200 km/h - or Mach 1*.
Every practical use of air power has to add weight. Especially weapon use. And the only way to compensate for it, is making the plane (especially the wingspan) larger. Wich in turn makes the plane easier to detect and shoot down.
Only baloons and Airships seem viable at all. But they do still have to compete with Orbiters for Mars.
I guess we could say: Airplanes are barely worth it on earth. So unless we got a comparable Atmosphere density/lift to gravity ratio, it would simply be not worth the effort.

*Mach speed is measured relative to the speed of sound. Based on atmosphere density, that figure changes. So there is no single speed that defines "mach 1".

Again, I do think Naval would work better. It would also suffer from lesser water density/gravity ratio, but not as badly as airplanes do.

I think it is only airplane in concept on most worlds. They would be closer to 'planetary flyers' of sorts. Wings would be of little use. The fuel could easily be mono propellants or even just a counter for a fuel/oxygen mix. The lack of oxygen for 'burning' things in a future sci-fi setting shouldn't be viewed as a stopper.

I think things like 'aircraft' and 'ships' will be interesting but only so long as they bring improvements to the game play, they would have to fit well into the existing systems and so forth. Having stuff for stuffs sake doesn't appeal to me personally.

Naval units would most definitely add something to the game - allowing planets with serious amounts of water. Right now the amount of liquid water is capped, but even what little water there is can still cause massive isssues with bottlenecks.

I am unsure aircraft would add anything, but we can still theorize:
That the Galactic Republic would have had no issues operating Aircraft on every possible planet is clear. We already found their spotter drones and antigrav-lifts, so we know they could do "flight" on every planet regardless of atmosphere. But the player is always way short of that tech level.
So looking for realism with early aircraft is not different from a moon start: A whole host of options (Windtraps, getting fuel out of the ground) are simply removed by the fact that you are playing on a moon without atmosphere or biosphere.

(in reply to kneecaps)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 11:44:21 AM

GodwinW

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I concur, I can see naval units and water maps (should have some water goodies and exploitable hexes too), but air units? Idk.. Maybe I'd prefer not having them.

(in reply to zgrssd)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 12:18:01 PM

Mandragoron

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First a 1000 Worlds Empire will have created fighter tech which can fly in space, so they can fly also in low atmo planets...

And second no water world? My first world i am on has some realy big oceans ;)

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 10

RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 1:07:44 PM

Kamelpov

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Well that's the reason you don't have archipelago planet and ocean world no plane and no ship and no earth at 70% water 30% landmass and get siwa instead.

(in reply to Mandragoron)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/10/2020 5:13:40 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mandragoron

First a 1000 Worlds Empire will have created fighter tech which can fly in space, so they can fly also in low atmo planets...

And second no water world? My first world i am on has some realy big oceans ;)

Again: That the Galactic Republic managed to do fighters is no question. They were a Kardahev 3 Civilisation (Galactic Level). They had antigrave technology.

The Shadow Empires meanwhile do not normally start with Automatic Rifle and Combat Armor. They would not be using Antigrav tech anytime soon.
GR Antigrav tech would be earliest around Fusion Atomics/Energetics/Robotics/Heavy Machinery.

As for the "water planet": It is still a single landmass where you can reach every field via foot, is it not? That is not a water planet. Once we have islands or otherwise seperate landmasses you can only get to by boat - then it is a Water Planet.
Earth surface is 70% water. What did you get, 30% water?

(in reply to Mandragoron)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/12/2020 5:57:23 PM

Munashe

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I'm glad to hear that there's potential for air and ground units in the future. I personally wouldn't mind paying a bit for a dlc for both, or either depending on how fleshed out the additions would end up being. At minimum I'd like to see fighters, bombers, and some form of air transport. I think sea vessels would fit in too, with something like frigates, cruisers, destroyers, submarines, transports, battleships, and on the far extreme end of additions, carriers. Each of these types could just be one of the model types the same way we have infantry, buggies, light, med and heavy tanks, etc. Maybe even a naval or air force council? (Also, the GR is no way close to a K3, and probably not even a K2, since it reads more like a conventional soft scifi polity. They probably don't even have a single dyson swarm)

(in reply to Frostwave)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/12/2020 8:16:22 PM

Naselus

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If aircraft are added, then there should be several different methods of flight represented which may or may not be appropriate for different conditions - just as water craft, if added, aren't going to see much use on a desert world, some flight options should be impossible on, say, non-atmospheric planets. Likewise, some late-game ship hulls which can be used even in lava would be a cool addition if naval units are added.

As for whether flight is worth it or not - I'd say that's an interesting decision I should make in-game for myself, based on my resources. Maybe on some worlds I can only achieve flight with absurd wing spans and hilariously overpowered engines so a basic fighter needs to cost as much as a full squadron of plasma monitors; I should still be allowed to decide whether to go ahead and build the thing based on the emergent situation in the game.

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/12/2020 8:43:32 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

As for whether flight is worth it or not - I'd say that's an interesting decision I should make in-game for myself, based on my resources.

Actually we have to answer that question way before it:
There is no shortage of ideas for "things to add" to any given game.
But there is a massive shortage of developer time to implement any of them! Even more so on a single programmer project like this. So there will be "the list".

If we can figure out a way it actually adds to the game, it will end up way farther up on "the list".
I think "we could get worlds with serious amounts of water, islands and continents, if we had naval" is a really solid argument for Naval units!

I can not think of one for flight yet.

(in reply to Naselus)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/12/2020 10:14:27 PM

Naselus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Actually we have to answer that question way before it:
There is no shortage of ideas for "things to add" to any given game.
But there is a massive shortage of developer time to implement any of them! Even more so on a single programmer project like this. So there will be "the list".

If we can figure out a way it actually adds to the game, it will end up way farther up on "the list".
I think "we could get worlds with serious amounts of water, islands and continents, if we had naval" is a really solid argument for Naval units!

I can not think of one for flight yet.

very

You could turn that argument on it's head tho - most maps atm can't even support naval units and so they add nothing, but fliers could be added to many existing planet types and would add to the existing gameplay.

Obviously both is preferable, but I'd suggest that the navy would require a lot more work to be done to really add anything and would be ignored in a much higher % of games.

(in reply to zgrssd)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/12/2020 10:23:24 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

You could turn that argument on it's head tho - most maps atm can't even support naval units and so they add nothing, but fliers could be added to many existing planet types and would add to the existing gameplay.

The maps have limited water because there is no navy, that could be used to maneuver across it.
There is no functional difference between a ocean and a lava ocean right now. Both are just "impassable" terrain.

All maps have to be Pangea, as long as there is no navy/water mechanic. So the navy would add "every other map option" to the game.

(in reply to Naselus)

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/13/2020 10:30:22 AM

Bainin

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I really want the Navy to be a thing because it would mean we could have islands/Continents seperated from each other which would increase the replayability and open up multible possible world types, things like major rivers would be cool aswell and would give Aquatic creatures a reason to exist.

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/13/2020 4:01:13 PM

springel

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The problem with a naval part of the game is that it is hard to use for the AI, as the number of strategic options becomes very large.

Many strategy games with navies show pretty stupid AI naval invasions. Not because the AI is stupid, but because you need a brilliant AI to work them out within a complicated strategic situation.

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/14/2020 7:35:43 AM

Bainin

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Hell lets make an example lets pretend there are like 3 main continents with 1-2 majors on each i would already be happy if the ai was smart enough to invade another continent and reasonably proetect its troop convoys

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RE: Air and Naval Units? - 6/14/2020 10:09:47 AM

zgrssd

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It looks like it put this into the wrong "Air and Naval" thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

These options have been brought up in a Poll, below under "Big Features to add". Make sure to cast your vote:
https://www.vrdesigns.net/?p=2014

(in reply to Bainin)

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