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Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 6:32:12 AM   
mmacguinness

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		How can I schedule the sequential entry into the map area of following units.

For example, I want to start with only a CRP on the map, FSE enters maybe 5 minutes later, then the battalion main force say 15 minutes later

I've read the manual several times, but can't see it there.

3.5 Force Selection pages 13-14 does not mention a map entry scheduling function.
4.2.1 Setup Phase on pages 16-17 does not deal with this either.
4.3.2 Right-click Commands, nope.
5.7 Advanced Scenario Editing, nope.
Post #: 1
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 10:46:17 AM   
zacklaws

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		This raised its head a long time ago.

The solution I suggested was to create a map that is wider than what you planned on. All you do then is, deploy all your follow up troops further back either static out of LOS to the enemy or plan how long it would take the FSE to move 5 mins and the BN Main Force to move 15 mins and deploy them that distance further back, or a combination of both methods.

Realistically, it is the better option than the "AI" bringing them onto the map at a specific time as you know 100% that they will arrive and you can plan your battle based on you know what is going to arrive. But, if they have to move across the map itself, then they could be subjected to air attack, artillery if the enemy spots them, hold ups at bottlenecks etc so realistically as in real life, you cannot guarantee your forces will arrive on time and with what etc.


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Post #: 2
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 11:02:14 AM   
mmacguinness

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, that would work.

But then we have the problem of having to micro-manage the battalion march formation to ensure each unit maintains its position...............
And what would stop the AI placing the battalion forward anyway?

Better to have timed entry. Interdiction, delays, etc., can be modeled by a percentage chance the unit arrives (as in Steel Panthers), and a delay factor

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Post #: 3
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 11:34:22 AM   
zacklaws

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

But then we have the problem of having to micro-manage the battalion march formation to ensure each unit maintains its position...............
And what would stop the AI placing the battalion forward anyway?


But, you have to "Micromanage" anyway. All you have to do is give them one "Move" order to the position you want them to appear on the battlefield etc And when they arrive where you want them, you would still have to micromanage them. Its not a problem.

If its your own forces then the AI cannot deploy them forward as you deploy them yourself on the map. But as for the enemy forces then you do not have any control over where they deploy.

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Post #: 4
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 12:38:44 PM   
mmacguinness

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		Micro-managing: In AB, a battalion sized march formation including platoons, srsections, and single vehicles of various types all moving at their own preferred speed degenerates into an undisciplined rabble within a km or two. The player is supposed to be a battalion or brigade commmander managing a battle, coordinating and directing the actions of his subordinates, not an MP sargeant directing traffic far behind the fight. That is something the AI should do. I have posted on this before. TacOps (here I go again) did that very well, all units moved at the same speed, easy. Rëference FM 100-2-1 "The column organization, established before starting the march, should minimize or preclude any reorganizing before commitment to battle."

Map size: On further consideration, the maximum AB map size, 15km x 15km, split between Friendly and Enemy forces, is just a bit too small to provide doctrinal separation between the CRP, FSE and battalion main body, except if the scenario starts with the CRP already in contact.

AI: Since the AI cannot be disciplined into deploying its forces in a March Formation: MRB Moving to FEBA, or equivalent US/NATO March Formation, then scenarios involving racing to block or intercept an MRB that has broken through cannot be modelled in AB.




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Post #: 5
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/6/2020 4:38:16 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mmacguinness

Micro-managing: In AB, a battalion sized march formation including platoons, srsections, and single vehicles of various types all moving at their own preferred speed degenerates into an undisciplined rabble within a km or two. The player is supposed to be a battalion or brigade commmander managing a battle, coordinating and directing the actions of his subordinates, not an MP sargeant directing traffic far behind the

To be honest, I think maximum reasonable force size for AB is a reinforced company. Over that force size there just isn't good enough AI.

Another problem is that unit speeds are hardware speeds instead of standard speeds used in military. Funny thing is that IIRC none of military people that made their remarks about game mechanics mentioned that using hardware speeds isn't practical.

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Post #: 6
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/7/2020 12:32:06 PM   
mmacguinness

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		I think you are probably right about a reinforced co. being the optimum force size for the current AI.
Nevertheless, the game has the potential to live up to its billing as Armored BRIGADE.
To do so, the AI will need rules to make it conform to doctrine appropriate to the US/NATO or Soviet/WP at least, and later to individual national variations, including the organization and movement of both company and battalion sized formations of mixed unit types.

I posted elsewhere about mixed formation speeds, but the discussion didn't go anywhere productive.
See below table from FM 100-2-1 for average speeds on different quality roads and surfaces. A formation can't move faster than its slowest unit and maintain cohesion




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/7/2020 2:19:23 PM   
mmacguinness

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		On further reflection, I suppose I could go into the database and give every unit an identical Advance speed.

However, that is a level of effort I don't want to do. I don't have time for it, I have a life, and (these days) fortunately work too. I mostly enjoy the game as is, and work within the limitations I encounter.

My purpose in posting about issues I identify is to bring issues to the attention of the developers so they can be reviewed, assessed for feasibility or desirability, and if they pass this test get ranked/prioritised for action during further development of the game.

I initiated discussions on stacking limits and formation reorganisation which led to improvements. I believe mixed formation movement is another important issue. It may be more difficult to resolve, but it needs to be resolved if the game is to achieve its potential.



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Post #: 8
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/11/2020 2:07:34 AM   
nikolas93TS


Posts: 619
Joined: 2/24/2017
Status: offline 		Identical advance speed is an absurd idea. Secondly, units in game rarely drive at maximum speed and hardware speed does have real life implications as seen in experience of US army operating mixed Patton/M113 and Abrams/Bradley formations.

We are planning to introduce reinforcement feature for scenarios, and waypoint rework will probably include formation speed adjuster and synchronized waypoints. But having AI handling doctrinal formation deployments is IMHO senseless. Maybe it will be possible in future with AI scripting, but that is way down the road.

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Post #: 9
RE: Scheduling unit entry - 6/12/2020 5:55:12 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zacklaws

quote:

But then we have the problem of having to micro-manage the battalion march formation to ensure each unit maintains its position...............
And what would stop the AI placing the battalion forward anyway?


But, you have to "Micromanage" anyway. All you have to do is give them one "Move" order to the position you want them to appear on the battlefield etc And when they arrive where you want them, you would still have to micromanage them. Its not a problem.

If its your own forces then the AI cannot deploy them forward as you deploy them yourself on the map. But as for the enemy forces then you do not have any control over where they deploy.


It's possible to place and lock all AI formations in the current version of the game.


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Post #: 10
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