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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 4:51:22 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		I think it's not realistic to expect Vic to implement an entirely different logistics system at this point. The amount of work and testing needed for a demand-based system will likely far exceed what he's willing to invest in this issue, and will take away time from other new development such as air and naval combat.

A few minor tweaks to the current system, such as fixed-value traffic signs or whatever else we can come up with, are far more likely to actually be patched in.

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 31
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 5:21:21 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline
quote:


A few minor tweaks to the current system, such as fixed-value traffic signs or whatever else we can come up with, are far more likely to actually be patched in.


Agreed. Is it currently possible to remove roads? I'd consider that a must-have feature to help smooth things out.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 32
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 5:57:56 PM   
Bleek


Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Being able to demolish roads would fix a lot of the complaints.

I like the logistics system, but I would really like to remove obsolete roads instead of having a traffic light Christmas tree.

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 33
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:02:15 PM   
IvanJoukov

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 11/3/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		Logistic system is great, clear and easy. Some little things are missing (deleting road clearly) but I really don't want it to change, it's one of the best thing in this game.

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 34
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:05:11 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

If you don't want to think build supply truck and max size everytime and put them at 8 hex from each other and call it a day.

who has the population/workers for that? that's the major problem I have with logistics, even with rail IV stations between all my cities, there just aren't enough workers (and I've sucked up all free folk in all my zones already)

Well I'm optimizing road+rail with traffic so i never had that problem even my railroad can output 21000 on a medium map I can supply my whole empire with only 1 SHQ

(in reply to Cornuthaum)
Post #: 35
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:07:35 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline 		A demand based supply work well but require priority so what get the thing first zone or unit that is the question. One gonna starve while the other get their need. + The amount of calculation go up really fast with more combinaisons.

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Post #: 36
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:28:22 PM   
misterblort

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Something that you put, just like a traffic light, but instead you put a priority marker that pulls supply to it first before doing the rest as normal?

(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 37
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:33:44 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		I like the current system. So far. But only about 30 hours in.

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Post #: 38
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 6:51:22 PM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline 		This whole issue throws up a fundamental problem with complex strategy gaming, and that is that if you allow for people to micromanage things excessively, they will if they feel they need to in order to win. Good games designers will take this into account: the example I used in my review of the game was Vic's decision to punish changing BP allocation across Organisations, a genius move that still allows the player to crash fund something if necessary but at the cost of a serious penalty to loyalty across the board. This discourages excessive micromanagement, and it's something that's been used in 4X game design since the original Master of Orion.

This logistics issue is just is not a problem on the Regular difficulty setting. I've played this game well in excess of 100 hours now, maybe getting on 150 and most of those on Large maps and into the late game, and I've never felt the turn by turn Traffic Management was ever necessary, and certainly not after the first twenty or so turns.

Consider that after turn 100 or so, your turns are taking in excess of half an hour anyway especially when you've hit a Major Regime and are fighting a huge war. Whilst you certainly have to watch your logistics you never need to be constantly fiddling with the Traffic Management: if there's some odd mesh of roads then it's a matter of seconds to fix it and you'll likely never touch it again.

I understand that people who play on the hardest settings will be trying to leverage every advantage they have, but demanding that a core game mechanic is changed to facilitate that seems a bit much to me.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 6/9/2020 6:53:36 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 39
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:23:43 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		KingHalford, it's been explained to you several times already in this discussion that this is an actual problem for some people playing even on beginner difficulty. Can you please stop dismissing it just because you've played "over 100 hours" and never personally needed it? As if a mere 100 hours can show you every situation a game this complex can throw at you...

Let me give you a very clear example of one of my beginner difficulty games. I have a newly conquered city sitting at the edge of a 25 hex rail and covered road line from its nearest neighbour. The rail and road line is on a thin strip of land surrounded by oceans. There's a whole bunch of resource sites and bonus hexes on that strip, all branching off from that some road. Loads of truck stations and supply depots have been built or are under construction to support that strip, as are rail stations.

Near the newly conquered city I have several brigades engaged with a major power. Near that city is also a spaghetti of AI-built roads leading nowhere. The city is not yet fully pacified and construction of new transport assets in it is slow.

By using about 50 traffic signs to prevent all those side roads on the strip and near the city from eating unnecessary logistics that city receives over 3500 logistical points, my logistics lines extend up to 20 hexes from that city and I can keep the front intact and the city (barely) building its own logistics network at max speed (given the level of unrest). If I remove those traffic signs, my logistics in that city are reduced to below 2400 points, construction is bottlenecked by lack of resources and my logistic lines are reduced to 13 hexes, forcing me to abandon a good defensive position in the mountains for a battle on wide open terrain against a numerically superior opponent. All because suddenly every single lvl 1 resource site is drawing thousands of logistics instead of the 100 it needs, merely because it's located along the main logistical path.

And because my logistics capacity around that city is being increased each turn, I have to constantly fiddle with the traffic signs near it to keep all nearby assets operational without having them draw off so much capacity that it impacts the supply of my troops.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 40
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:26:54 PM   
Frostwave


Posts: 109
Joined: 3/25/2013
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Its complicated (Logistics) and I'm slowly learning it but I have a way to go yet but I'm also loving it. This game is amazing. Just when I think I found the last cool system I happen upon a few more. Nothing like this game exists anywhere.

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 41
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:32:08 PM   
springel


Posts: 363
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Groningen, NL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

By using about 50 traffic signs to prevent all those side roads.....


You are gravely exaggerating. It is trivial to isolate the main route with a few traffic lights. And from there you can easily open up one or two side roads with a limited fraction. And from there on you only have to adjust a bit once and a while.

And you can change the lights back and forth, while looking at the predicted result.

You just have to wrap your head around this unique way to do things, then it is trivial. A beautiful system.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 42
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:32:52 PM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

KingHalford, it's been explained to you several times already in this discussion that this is an actual problem for some people playing even on beginner difficulty. Can you please stop dismissing it just because you've played "over 100 hours" and never personally needed it? As if a mere 100 hours can show you every situation a game this complex can throw at you...

Let me give you a very clear example of one of my beginner difficulty games. I have a newly conquered city sitting at the edge of a 25 hex rail and covered road line from its nearest neighbour. The rail and road line is on a thin strip of land surrounded by oceans. There's a whole bunch of resource sites and bonus hexes on that strip, all branching off from that some road. Loads of truck stations and supply depots have been built or are under construction to support that strip, as are rail stations.

Near the newly conquered city I have several brigades engaged with a major power. Near that city is also a spaghetti of AI-built roads leading nowhere. The city is not yet fully pacified and construction of new transport assets in it is slow.

By using about 50 traffic signs to prevent all those side roads on the strip and near the city from eating unnecessary logistics that city receives over 3500 logistical points, my logistics lines extend up to 20 hexes from that city and I can keep the front intact and the city (barely) building its own logistics network at max speed (given the level of unrest). If I remove those traffic signs, my logistics in that city are reduced to below 2400 points, construction is bottlenecked by lack of resources and my logistic lines are reduced to 13 hexes, forcing me to abandon a good defensive position in the mountains for a battle on wide open terrain against a numerically superior opponent. All because suddenly every single lvl 1 resource site is drawing thousands of logistics instead of the 100 it needs, merely because it's located along the main logistical path.

And because my logistics capacity around that city is being increased each turn, I have to constantly fiddle with the traffic signs near it to keep all nearby assets operational without having them draw off so much capacity that it impacts the supply of my troops.


Fair enough, having to change them all every turn sounds like excessive and unnecessary micromanagement to me but this is exactly the point I was making: if you allow for such things then people will feel compelled to do it.

I'm well up for this system being tuned to prevent that happening if Vic can find a way of doing it that doesn't drastically alter the existing gameplay.

_____________________________

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www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 43
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:38:10 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: springel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

By using about 50 traffic signs to prevent all those side roads.....


You are gravely exaggerating. It is trivial to isolate the main route with a few traffic lights. And from there you can easily open up one or two side roads with a limited fraction. And from there on you only have to adjust a bit once and a while.

And you can change the lights back and forth, while looking at the predicted result.

You just have to wrap your head around this unique way to do things, then it is trivial. A beautiful system.


I am most definitely not exaggerating. The game helpfully provides a counter for traffic lights. Mine is currently up to 74, and the vast majority is dealing with this single strategic situation. The AI has built numerous roads that every third hex have a branch that literally leads nowhere.

Why is it so hard for certain people on this forum to grasp that maybe, just maybe, other people encounter different situations in their game than they do? If all I had to do was tweak a bit once in a while I would be playing, not debating about it here.

(in reply to springel)
Post #: 44
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:43:54 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		I like the logistics system. First, DasTactics has about 90 minutes of tips and tricks video just on the logistics system. At least look at the first few minutes of each of those videos because he give a quick version and then a detailed explanation in each video. Is it complex? Very. Can the game be played without micromanaging logistics? Yes especially against the AI. But results will vary depending on the planet and your situation. Just look through the above posts for varying experiences. I find the logistics system to be remarkable, perhaps one of the best logistics simulations in a computer wargame. Is it perfect? Of course not. Will Vic tweak it in the coming weeks based on player inputs and identified problems? Almost certainly. And perhaps ramnblam has a fix in suggesting that you be able to automate or partially automate the logistics system as an option, accepting that it won't be perfect. Can it be critiqued as not being "realistic"? Of course. It is a computer game. But I think the system rivals in complexity and realism some of the logistics problems I had to work in Command and General Staff College, a mid-level school for US Army officers, some 28 years ago. I think it is a gem, as springel noted. And there is also a simple fix that will help or fix many, but not all, of your log problems that has been stated above -- build more trucks. As sun Tzu wrote: The line between disorder and order lies in logistics.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 45
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 7:48:15 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		I like the current logistics system as well, despite its flaws. I just want better tools to interact with it, instead of being forced to do needless micromanagement or spam trucks with resources I do not have available.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)
Post #: 46
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 8:09:36 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

I like the current logistics system as well, despite its flaws. I just want better tools to interact with it, instead of being forced to do needless micromanagement or spam trucks with resources I do not have available.


Yes, I think some fixes and improvements are in order. And I do like the idea of having an option of automating the logistics or partially automating it.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 47
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 8:35:44 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		My first choice is to add the ability to delete roads (from end points only to avoid orphaned sections).

My second choice is leave things as they are. It's a brilliant system.

_____________________________

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Post #: 48
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 9:12:42 PM   
Bleek


Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

My first choice is to add the ability to delete roads (from end points only to avoid orphaned sections).

My second choice is leave things as they are. It's a brilliant system.


Same as me.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 49
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 9:44:07 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		The main issue I can see with being able to delete roads would be it’s unrealistic use as an offense ability by buggy/biker raiders behind enemy lines. Now I could maybe see this being used against railroads ... but how would a raider destroy thousands of miles of dirt roads? Plant trees on them? Place very large boulders on them?

I think just placing a large stop sign on an unwanted road is fine solution as is. It may not be pretty but it works.

_____________________________

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Post #: 50
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 9:46:10 PM   
gilith

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/15/2011
Status: offline 		The game is brilliant, but logistic system- not so much. I mean, the concept is good, but it really should have been automated.

It doesn't need any additional complex calculations; all the required values are already there- they're visible on "used pts" map overlay. Just assume infinite logistic points in the first step to calculate used points, then for each source set the traffic signs in each direction to what is actually used.
When you exceed the capacity then it becomes a bit more tricky, but still not that complex.

With this approach, you also don't need to delete roads; and backup roads may actually be useful when your main logistic routes get cut off.

< Message edited by gilith -- 6/9/2020 9:50:05 PM >

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 51
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 9:57:05 PM   
ZygfrydDeLowe

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

KingHalford, it's been explained to you several times already in this discussion that this is an actual problem for some people playing even on beginner difficulty. Can you please stop dismissing it just because you've played "over 100 hours" and never personally needed it? As if a mere 100 hours can show you every situation a game this complex can throw at you...

Let me give you a very clear example of one of my beginner difficulty games. I have a newly conquered city sitting at the edge of a 25 hex rail and covered road line from its nearest neighbour. The rail and road line is on a thin strip of land surrounded by oceans. There's a whole bunch of resource sites and bonus hexes on that strip, all branching off from that some road. Loads of truck stations and supply depots have been built or are under construction to support that strip, as are rail stations.

Near the newly conquered city I have several brigades engaged with a major power. Near that city is also a spaghetti of AI-built roads leading nowhere. The city is not yet fully pacified and construction of new transport assets in it is slow.

By using about 50 traffic signs to prevent all those side roads on the strip and near the city from eating unnecessary logistics that city receives over 3500 logistical points, my logistics lines extend up to 20 hexes from that city and I can keep the front intact and the city (barely) building its own logistics network at max speed (given the level of unrest). If I remove those traffic signs, my logistics in that city are reduced to below 2400 points, construction is bottlenecked by lack of resources and my logistic lines are reduced to 13 hexes, forcing me to abandon a good defensive position in the mountains for a battle on wide open terrain against a numerically superior opponent. All because suddenly every single lvl 1 resource site is drawing thousands of logistics instead of the 100 it needs, merely because it's located along the main logistical path.

And because my logistics capacity around that city is being increased each turn, I have to constantly fiddle with the traffic signs near it to keep all nearby assets operational without having them draw off so much capacity that it impacts the supply of my troops.



I know what you mean. It's all fine and dandy until you encounter the AI spaghetti road network (Major Regimes construct Dirt Roads for free).


I had to place those traffic lights there manually, as without them my units were not in ideal supply (green) and some where out of supply even. With those traffic signs they were mostly in ideal supply and that makes a difference between victory and defeat.

Thankfully I don't feel like I need to adjust them turn by turn. I don't know what is a better solution, destroying unnecessary and unused roads would certainly be nice, but with some conditions, preventing potential exploitation that jimwinsor mentioned.

< Message edited by ZygfrydDeLowe -- 6/9/2020 9:58:03 PM >

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 52
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 11:15:42 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

The main issue I can see with being able to delete roads would be it’s unrealistic use as an offense ability by buggy/biker raiders behind enemy lines. Now I could maybe see this being used against railroads ... but how would a raider destroy thousands of miles of dirt roads? Plant trees on them? Place very large boulders on them?

I think just placing a large stop sign on an unwanted road is fine solution as is. It may not be pretty but it works.


I'm talking strictly about roads in your own territory being deleted by selecting the hex and clicking a "delete road" command.


_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

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Post #: 53
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 11:46:58 PM   
gilith

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/15/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
I'm talking strictly about roads in your own territory being deleted by selecting the hex and clicking a "delete road" command.

While deleting your own roads could help with the logistic mess, it's just unrealistic- why would you ever destroy your own roads? Maybe as a desperate measure when you're being invaded, but with the AI ignoring logistic, there's no point.

Logistic should be fixed/automated, traffic signs should only be relevant when you're out of LP capacity. Deleting roads sounds like just a dirty hack.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 54
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/9/2020 11:56:33 PM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline 		I'm on the side of liking the logistics, although I agree that demolishing roads would be a nice addition along with a few more options on the traffic lights. I slightly prefer the system used in games like War in the East, but I actually enjoy playing with a new system that works fine.

(in reply to gilith)
Post #: 55
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:41:06 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gilith


quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
I'm talking strictly about roads in your own territory being deleted by selecting the hex and clicking a "delete road" command.

While deleting your own roads could help with the logistic mess, it's just unrealistic- why would you ever destroy your own roads? Maybe as a desperate measure when you're being invaded, but with the AI ignoring logistic, there's no point.

Logistic should be fixed/automated, traffic signs should only be relevant when you're out of LP capacity. Deleting roads sounds like just a dirty hack.


Did you even look at the post 2 above by ZygfrydDeLowe?

We're mostly talking about roads that you inherit when taking over AI territory.

It obvious why you would want these roads destroyed that are currently being blocked by traffic signals.

Exactly what is unrealistic about that?

_____________________________

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Post #: 56
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 4:14:39 AM   
Whydmer


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/5/2009
Status: offline 		I wonder if it would it be possible for Vic to implement two paired signs (entangled quantum signs ) if supply flowing down a road encounters sign "F1" it will travel only by the shortest connected road to sign "F2" any side roads leading off in between the two entangled signs will get no supply. It wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems but it would solve the problem of supply traveling through a section of spaghetti roads wouldn't it?

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 57
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:24:49 AM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: gilith


quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
I'm talking strictly about roads in your own territory being deleted by selecting the hex and clicking a "delete road" command.

While deleting your own roads could help with the logistic mess, it's just unrealistic- why would you ever destroy your own roads? Maybe as a desperate measure when you're being invaded, but with the AI ignoring logistic, there's no point.

Logistic should be fixed/automated, traffic signs should only be relevant when you're out of LP capacity. Deleting roads sounds like just a dirty hack.


Did you even look at the post 2 above by ZygfrydDeLowe?

We're mostly talking about roads that you inherit when taking over AI territory.

It obvious why you would want these roads destroyed that are currently being blocked by traffic signals.

Exactly what is unrealistic about that?


We definitely need to be able to remove roads. This would certainly help to fix the issue of having to overuse Traffic Management, I wholeheartedly agree.

I still fail to see how anybody would ever need to constantly change ALL of these traffic management placements turn by turn to squeeze out a few more LIP when they can just set them once and occasionally change one or two on the main route, when by that point of the game a Truck station takes 1 turn with minimal resources to build and run.

I think there's some extreme hyperbole flying around here (this is not directed at you at all Will).

I can think of twenty things in this game that need fixing before this issue.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 58
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:39:42 AM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline 		Oil shortages.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 59
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:42:37 AM   
misterblort

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Look there is no logical explanation that a ton of trucks drive down a road then split up in 2 at every intersection while there might not even be anything there to drop of their resources...
I understand the system I know how it works it just doesn't make sense that it is not automated.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 60
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