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Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 12:20:05 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

I am on Round 9 of a two-player game on Beginner difficulty playing both regimes. I hope to be having fun soon...

The marketing from Danielle was spot-on for this game: There is nothing quite like it, at least in comparison to the thousands I have played over the past four decades. Seeing Vic progress from People's General to this shows just how gifted a game designer he is.

For an older guy who has lost significant brain cells, this game is work. There is no instant gratification here. But a totally different type of effort than required of say, WitE or DC: Barbarossa. One must study the UI and not be immediately frustrated when finding he cannot do something. I may need to read the 320-page manual (can't do videos, just me), but for now, this forum has been a good source of information.

Certainly, it's a must-buy for the chap who thinks he "has everything" game-wise, and not saying I am that guy. It will be extremely interesting to see the response on the wider audience of Steam, if and when it is released there.

In the meantime, I am (fairly) determined to have fun before giving up. I know that being on Round 9 is laughable when making a judgement on most games. But right up front one realizes this game is not transparent. The map looks pretty simple, but just you wait!

Post #: 1

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 1:18:11 AM

Jdane

Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

I hope you'll find your fun eventually.

I agree information is sometimes obfuscated in places you would have never thought about before stumbling upon it while clicking somewhat randomly, but in my opinion there's a sophisticated set of rules going on under the hood.

I would dare say the rules are more coherent than the terminology in game, but that would be a somewhat nasty jab to VR Designs who have already provided me with hours of enjoyment.

But round 9 is only the very beginning. Just you wait.

As to your references to other games, what I like most with Shadow Empire, and liked about Advanced Tactics Gold, is the build up to the kind of large scale conflict that other games throw you in from the get go, and whose sheer scale always put me off. Getting there slowly by our own means is an entirely different - and enjoyable to me - thing.

Then again, keep on trucking, I hope you'll have a blast, this game sure can provide it.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/10/2020 1:20:12 AM >

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 2

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 4:10:36 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

Thanks for the response and your support. I didn't want to come across too negative on a game I have barely grasped. Your answers on the other posts are also appreciated!

(in reply to Jdane)

Post #: 3

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 4:25:53 AM

Whydmer

Posts: 105
Joined: 6/5/2009
Status: offline

Jdane, that is one of the things I love about ATG as well, the slow buildup to a massive war.

Rosseau, as an aging gamer myself I find I have to spend some good time thinking about what new game I want to invest the time to learn. I also grew up on strategy board games and no internet so I played every single one against myself. (Except Diplomacy... even I wasn't able to split my personality to play that one alone.) I've even played multiple sides in ATG. But going straight to playing two sides against each other in Shadow Empires seems incredibly daunting to me. I wish you well!

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 4

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 4:31:35 AM

MC456

Posts: 66
Joined: 11/9/2018
Status: offline

These kinds of games are always more intimidating than they seem at first. Eventually you find that a lot of it just comes naturally as you play.

People's Tactics got me into wargaming when it first came out. Probably got over 2k hours in Advanced Tactics Gold. I can honestly say that Shadow Empire is a tremendous step in the right direction and lives up to the other games. The added 4X layers on top of the wargaming layer takes some getting used to, but it's worth it.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 5

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 4:52:25 AM

Frostwave

Posts: 109
Joined: 3/25/2013
From: Canada
Status: offline

Hi not sure if this will help make it more fun but it should at least aid you in learning the game. Dastactic has a nice series of videos explaining some of the core concepts and mechanics of the game. I'm still learning the ropes but from turn one I was hooked so not sure if learning the game will make it any more fun for you because for me half of the fun so far is finding new levels of depth in this game; that is brilliantly hidden and not needed initially but for me the more I learn the more hooked and impressed I get. I really feel like I'm running a living breathing apocalyptic settlement on a cruel planet filled with dangers everywhere and a lot of them internal as well. Hope these vids help and get you having fun with this gem. I've never played a game that handles logistics, supply, private and public economies, outfitting soldiers and equipment, internal politics, combat, personnel management as deep and as satisfying as this game has achieved. I know your not into vids but these are nice that you can watch the ones that deal with the area of the game that you need the most help with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BivVweJ5-iA&list=PLGB6RkFB7ZmPoXDAaR8FbM3xujwMsDgEv

< Message edited by Frostwave -- 6/10/2020 4:55:28 AM >

(in reply to MC456)

Post #: 6

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 5:09:17 AM

diamondspider

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

Game didn't feel like work to me at all, even with all of the tedious fiddling required... that is, until I crushed one major early and lapped the other, but the third and last one had double my score (about 31 to my 14). Likely, as usual in these games, because he is the only one that had room to expand without running in to another major (war is expensive and a waste of precious development time). So now I am forming my line up that goes all the way from the top of the planet to the bottom. I expect this to take a lot of work and a lot of time and then the big battle that will decide the game. Some might think this would be the best part but, for my taste, spending hours of real time shuffling units into a line only to get into the normal crawl of battle isn't too fun.

One suggestion I can make is from War in the East (still my top computer war game), and that is to make it cost extra AP to travel through enemy (not neutral) hexes. As it is, working on making a good breakthrough is difficult because they can also just zip right through your line. Both the very low ZOC penalty on AP and that for taking enemy territory (which I believe is zero AP penalty) means that aggressive breakthroughs are often met my a lot of fast units driving right back through the hole. The AI doesn't care about all the extra micro that causes, but it tires me out in the face of the many hours of line pushing being added to that problem.

Good news is that I can look forward to starting my next game, where I can have fun for a while before it gets this grindy ;)

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/10/2020 5:11:47 AM >

(in reply to Frostwave)

Post #: 7

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 5:36:35 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

Thanks again for all the insightful comments and positive support. Interesting to see Matrix veterans and possibly many new customers involved in this game.

My strategy for playing two regimes is to have a "backup" in case I have really bad luck, or more likely, make a terrible mistake with one regime, the game is not lost. In fact, only on Round 9, but one Regime is doing quite well compared to another, so that is the "horse" I am betting on. Also playing on Beginner level, the AI is fairly tame so far.

Bottom line, is I have literally not scratched the surface of this, and some of the posts are revealing some very involved concepts in a wide variety of areas. Learning is more difficult than it used to be for me. But heck, there is a post we see about a blind person tackling this game. Humbling to say the least.

Especially with this game, the fact that the Matrix forums have historically been so patient and helpful is a real bonus and will surely seek help if I get really lost. Thanks again!

(in reply to diamondspider)

Post #: 8

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/10/2020 6:54:24 AM

diamondspider

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

One thing that is very safe to say about this game is that you cannot possibly even scratch the surface in under 20 hours. The depth just starts to show there as you become familiar with all of the moving parts and get several unexpected surprises.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 9

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/11/2020 1:36:29 AM

Leslac

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/4/2020
Status: offline

A good piece of help is click on everything... There's information everywhere and when you're used to the usual UI's from mainstream companies, you're not used to doing that.

The unit screen f.ex. - every statistic has it's own subscreen full of info. Want to know exactly why you're getting a certain amount of entrenchment? Click on it...

(in reply to diamondspider)

Post #: 10

RE: Not having fun yet - 6/11/2020 2:50:47 AM

diamondspider

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

...to update my game, the battle has been more fun than expected, mostly because I am crushing them now that my troops are so experienced and well organized. The AI actually has substantially better troops, but because the line is pretty far from my main cities, the counter attack problem is not so harrowing. The replacement problem has been that logistics seems to have broken for several of my main armies where it is impossible to get replacement troops except by bringing them up in another unit and transferring them (takes about 8 turns to do this). These OHQ units, unlike any others, always claim there is zero logistics to get replacements even when units right next to them can do this. So except for this bug being frustrating with my elite units needing to wait forever to get supplied (if veteran mechanized infantry can be called elite) by marching replacements to the front, the final battle has been quite fun.

(in reply to Leslac)

Post #: 11