RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:09:57 AM

kneecaps

Posts: 135
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline

Woah woah woah....am I misunderstanding how the system works totally?

My understanding was the logistics capacity was just that..a capacity. The ability to deliver X amount of stuff given demand? But looks as if that's not it at all? It's actually capacity wasted that goes down roads where nothing needs to be supplied??

(in reply to misterblort)

Post #: 61

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:19:25 AM

Nemo84

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline

Correct. Every time a road branches, it evenly splits truck points over both branches. So a lvl 1 farm connected to your main supply road will siphon off thousands of truck points until you place a traffic sign. And with enough points on the main line even the 95% sign wastes hundreds of truck points on that branch.

(in reply to kneecaps)

Post #: 62

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:34:51 AM

diamondspider

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

Right, meaning you can either micro-manage the traffic lights OR build a ton of truckstops if you have the fuel. Really is no other way to deal with it.

(in reply to Nemo84)

Post #: 63

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:58:41 AM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

I wholeheartedly agree that it does not make sense. Having finished two games already, and about to win my first extreme game on a large world, the one point of failure for this game, in my eyes, is the logistics systems. By turn 50, I spend 1 to 2 minutes visually checking my supply network and then 3 to 5 minutes fixing traffic signals.

This is necessary because of 2 factors: AI roads (the ones you conquer or the civilians build) and oil shortages. The latter is more extreme, as AI roads are a one and done deal. If you run out of oil or workers, your whole supply network falls apart and you have to spend 5 - 10 minutes cutting off things you can live without in order to get more oil and get supply underway again.

The fact that by turn 100 it takes a good 10 to 15 seconds to load the supply preview for next turns tells me that this is not programmed properly. As a software designer myself, I could implement a demand system in half a dozen way with minimal impact on performance, even counting all the minors AND majors - yes, even if minors used supply the same way majors do. It is not that hard and has been done countless times before.

There is no excuse. It is not logical and it is not efficient or fun. I support the idea of traffic signals, but only to prioritize which road to send supplies on, in a demand based system.

As an example: If you have 5000 demand NE, 5000 NW, and 3000 S, but only 10 000 capacity; you can prioritize NE and NW, and leave the south to eat dirt for dinner. I do not support the current system and feel that it should be at the very top of the list of things to amend. Before the steam release.

Also, the forum needs an upgrade, this is horrible.

Otherwise, love the game even with the logistics system the way it is.

< Message edited by WeaverofBrokenThreads -- 6/10/2020 10:00:29 AM >

(in reply to misterblort)

Post #: 64

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:00:02 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

There's some skill in logistics, in the forward planning and construction of roads to ensure you're getting the most out of your LIS. The Traffic Light system allows you to adjust where necessary, but I can't really see a situation where excessive turn-by-turn adjustment of 70+ traffic lights would ever be necessary where you couldn't just increase the amount of trucks you have to meet increasing demand. Certainly, if there's a very messy set of roads inherited from an AI then you might have to set the Traffic Lights at the start, but why would you need to adjust all of them every turn? Or even ten of them every five turns?

It doesn't make any sense, I'd quite like to see some screenshots of this situation to help me understand it better.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to diamondspider)

Post #: 65

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:01:13 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

I totally agree with the issue of how long the logistics preview takes. Hopefully something can be done there.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 66

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:02:35 AM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

There's some skill in logistics, in the forward planning and construction of roads to ensure you're getting the most out of your LIS. The Traffic Light system allows you to adjust where necessary, but I can't really see a situation where excessive turn-by-turn adjustment of 70+ traffic lights would ever be necessary where you couldn't just increase the amount of trucks you have to meet increasing demand. Certainly, if there's a very messy set of roads inherited from an AI then you might have to set the Traffic Lights at the start, but why would you need to adjust all of them every turn? Or even ten of them every five turns?

It doesn't make any sense, I'd quite like to see some screenshots of this situation to help me understand it better.

People have already posted screenshots that illustrate this issue. Out of curiosity, have you won a game yet, or conquered a big major? I ask because you reply here and talk like someone who has never run into this, when so far this has been ubiquitous for, it seems, everyone arguing against this system.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 67

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:07:02 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

Yes and yes but I claim no expertise.

The earlier screenshot showed a handful of traffic light connections, and all of them set to 100% block. Instead of that I'd recommend one of the less severe settings, and figuring out how many are being used so that you're not having to change them every turn.

I completely agree that system was not designed so that the player had to adjust it turn by turn, and it's clear that the tools are designed to prevent the need for that happening so not sure why it is then that people are demanding that it's changed so early into the game's release.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 68

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:09:33 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

And no I have never run into this. There are aspects of micromanagement in this game that can get annoying but traffic lights is not one of them. Early in the game, there's some micro necessary there but it's certainly no more chore than anything else, and later when you're up against a major you should have developed your logistics system to the point you can handle it. If the AI took you by surprise then you're going to have to struggle a bit, as happened in my last game! And then, you'll do whatever you can to win right? And I still highly doubt that there's any situation where 70+ traffic light connections need constantly adjusting on a turn by turn basis but happy to be proved wrong.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 69

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:16:30 AM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

I think people are over-exaggerating the issue a bit. Fighting with logistics can be an uphill battle that takes 20 to 30 minutes, but once it is set properly, it will endure for a while. The main issues arise when AI zones your roads/railroads, or you run out of oil. Conquering major AI roads can be a pain initially, but like I said before, it is a one and done deal however annoying it is.

I'd show you some screen shots of a truly terrifying road network, but the forum is clunky and won't let me.

I feel like beyond the heated arguments on this topic, the core thing we have in agreement is that we appreciate and welcome the supply system; having LIS (can we get that renamed please?) and sending it around to supply zones and units, or the SHQ, I personally feel is what is going to put Shadow Empire on the throne of 4x games. The thing we do not like is the way the LIS are sent down roads.

When your farm eats 2000 LIS, of which it uses only 10%, while your infantry starves, and your tanks sit in enemy territory with no fuel, the first thing to blame is the traffic signals and the design choice to split evenly. In a way, I agree with this, and I also agree that forward planning, and setting up traffic signals in advance, solves this issue but introduces unnecessary micro-management, and again, traffic signals are to blame.

I think that is generally what people mean by 'give us better tools or make it demand based'.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 70

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:31:32 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

I think people are over-exaggerating the issue a bit. Fighting with logistics can be an uphill battle that takes 20 to 30 minutes, but once it is set properly, it will endure for a while. The main issues arise when AI zones your roads/railroads, or you run out of oil. Conquering major AI roads can be a pain initially, but like I said before, it is a one and done deal however annoying it is.

I'd show you some screen shots of a truly terrifying road network, but the forum is clunky and won't let me.

I feel like beyond the heated arguments on this topic, the core thing we have in agreement is that we appreciate and welcome the supply system; having LIS (can we get that renamed please?) and sending it around to supply zones and units, or the SHQ, I personally feel is what is going to put Shadow Empire on the throne of 4x games. The thing we do not like is the way the LIS are sent down roads.

When your farm eats 2000 LIS, of which it uses only 10%, while your infantry starves, and your tanks sit in enemy territory with no fuel, the first thing to blame is the traffic signals and the design choice to split evenly. In a way, I agree with this, and I also agree that forward planning, and setting up traffic signals in advance, solves this issue but introduces unnecessary micro-management, and again, traffic signals are to blame.

I think that is generally what people mean by 'give us better tools or make it demand based'.

I think that's a very fair summary.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 71

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 10:53:09 AM

ObeseMonkey

Posts: 91
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

I think people are over-exaggerating the issue a bit. Fighting with logistics can be an uphill battle that takes 20 to 30 minutes, but once it is set properly, it will endure for a while. The main issues arise when AI zones your roads/railroads, or you run out of oil. Conquering major AI roads can be a pain initially, but like I said before, it is a one and done deal however annoying it is.

I'd show you some screen shots of a truly terrifying road network, but the forum is clunky and won't let me.

I feel like beyond the heated arguments on this topic, the core thing we have in agreement is that we appreciate and welcome the supply system; having LIS (can we get that renamed please?) and sending it around to supply zones and units, or the SHQ, I personally feel is what is going to put Shadow Empire on the throne of 4x games. The thing we do not like is the way the LIS are sent down roads.

When your farm eats 2000 LIS, of which it uses only 10%, while your infantry starves, and your tanks sit in enemy territory with no fuel, the first thing to blame is the traffic signals and the design choice to split evenly. In a way, I agree with this, and I also agree that forward planning, and setting up traffic signals in advance, solves this issue but introduces unnecessary micro-management, and again, traffic signals are to blame.

I think that is generally what people mean by 'give us better tools or make it demand based'.

Yh, it requires some streamlining. But I am glad of a complex logistics system frankly, over something very simplified. The core ideas are great.

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 72

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 12:03:19 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads
I wholeheartedly agree that it does not make sense.

Purely on your first sentence (haven't played on huge maps into 100s of turns yet so I cannot say on the rest) I disagree.

It does make sense.
Logistics isn't transport. It's also not transport capacity. It's the organization of transport. In my mind I picture it as a bunch of people checking and calculating where stuff should go. It's an organisational cost. So every road that your minions need to check does cost organisation effort points. And your minions are rather silly and hand-check every road, even those short ones, with a certain organisation budget if not stopped.

Now, I get that it's tied to Truck Stops and can get ignored by Traffic Signs which both indicate real world objects instead of organisational complexity, but that's just flavor.

To me it definitely does make sense. It's probably counter-intuitive for a certain percentage of people (high or low idk), but I can totally see it making sense.

So, again, just purely on that I disagree. It's very possible that you're right it gets unwieldy on bigger maps and later stages (and more difficult settings).

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 73

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 12:17:50 PM

diamondspider

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

Yes, it is abstracted. They are being told "service these roads with any requests", and the more roads, the more coordination is required. So it can be said to make a kind of sense. That said, it is true that the dispatchers are in fact going to be told "take these rifles to this point" rather than "make sure anyone on this road gets them". So it also doesn't make sense, and if you look at Gary Grisby's games, there is a certain amount of total trucks and rail power, and the question is how much of what is needed can get to where it is needed based on that and the actual demand, including all of the calculations for terrain, off-roading, etc.. HOWEVER, the fact is that this system gives you more to do and so if you find logistic fun it adds to the game, even if it is not the best modelling. That's why I like it for a change.

Honestly, if a tweak is to be made, I'd make the supply centers work a bit better (further range). The way other games work is that the transport mostly takes the stuff to local stockpiles (HQs of various levels usually) and they are then in charge of distributing them. Since I don't think OHQs serve this function in this game, supply centers could fill in... just a thought, and that may not make much difference. As it is, I never build supply centers, but in reality that is how logistics works.

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/10/2020 12:24:06 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 74

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 12:21:35 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

Yes it definitely adds to the game for me so far (and that may hold true later on)!

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/10/2020 12:22:06 PM >

(in reply to diamondspider)

Post #: 75

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 12:50:22 PM

willgamer

Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

... having LIS (can we get that renamed please?)....

Noooooooo!

LIS has become iconic.

Nobody knows exactly what it stands for; nobody knows how to do it perfectly; best of all, it will be the major discussion topic forever!!!

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 76

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:01:45 PM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

LIS, hallowed be its name, is absolutely 100% transport capacity. It says so in the description. You don't give 'AP' to organization of transport. Your SHQ does that. Even though the game refers to it as exactly that - capacity - it is not. LIS, may it bless this waterless, mutant-ridden world with its sweet, sweet logistical nectar, is your regime brute-forcing the problem. It is sending trucks and magically teleporting resources out of your SHQ and into assets and units that need them.

May the LIS be with you and protect you from the surviving AI.

(in reply to willgamer)

Post #: 77

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:13:18 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

I've had a think about this issue some more and wrestled a bit with the proposal to make it demand based.

My conclusion now is more firmly against the idea than before. I gave it a fair shout, but here's my reasoning:

If the game automatically determines where the demand is needed, what is there for the player to do with logistics beyond building roads/rail and truck/railway stations? The game will essentially automate the entire process and remove the need for the player having to interact with it. There's a very strong argument in game design that states that if something is automated there's a good chance it shouldn't be in the game, or it should be hidden from the players sight completely.

I think to drastically overhaul one of this game's most interesting features and demote it to being a mostly automated system with little interaction from the player to "fix" the issue of a few players feeling compelled to constantly micromanage the Traffic Lights would be a massive mistake. I don't mean to sound like a dick saying that, I'm sure that there are occasions where it's just necessary to have to spend some time each turn fiddling with the Traffic Management but until I see some evidence that this is any more time consuming than the rest of the micromanagement in this game, then I'm fundamentally opposed to that particular solution.

This has thrown up an interesting discussion though, and it might have highlighted a flaw in the game design because if a game rewards constant micromanagement of this kind, then people are going to do it, and then they'll complain the game is bad or "a mess". I gave the earlier example of taking Director Relation penalties for changing BP allocation to Organisations as a superb way of preventing the player exploiting and micromanaging the allocation sliders turn-by-turn.

Perhaps some similar system to limit Traffic management allocation to discourage such constant fiddling would be better? In which case, how's about a small BP penalty for changing the Traffic Lights?

Perhaps someone who's also had a think about the ramifications of such a change and came to a different conclusion can explain their side of the argument better than I explained it to myself.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 6/10/2020 1:14:56 PM >

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 78

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:22:18 PM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

Supply isn't a binary thing regime-wide. It's not 'either you have it' or 'you don't have it'. Making it demand based only reduces the micromanagement requirement, and potentially reduces the performance impact.

A demand based system would operate the same way as it does now. You'd have to build truck stops and supply bases to extend the capacity and AP. AP is the real limit to how much supply you can send. It does not remove the grander strategic approach; whether you want to send supply to the east front or the west front, or whatever have you.

The innovation with SE's logistics system isn't the capacity; it is in two parts: How it is handled to procure and distribute resources via SHQ interaction and AP. I cannot stress AP enough. For that reason, in my opinion, the satisfying part about logistics is the roads you build, the types of roads, the supply bases and truck stops.

To further illustrate the point that there is no downside: A demand-based system is the equivalent of perfect micro control of traffic stops. It is no different. Just done automatically. You still have the ability to block supplies down one of these main supply routes, which in a demand based system would be 'prioritizing' a different branch.

EDIT: I re-read your post and realized we were saying the same thing. In that case, I don't know what to tell you. I guess I can only reiterate that 'perfect micro or automated leads to the same result, but one is annoying and the other is not as exciting'? I imagine that even if you like the way it works now and will probably work forever, after a week or so, it won't be exciting anymore.

< Message edited by WeaverofBrokenThreads -- 6/10/2020 1:27:19 PM >

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 79

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:38:17 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

I believe the issue is the over-micromanagement of the system, not the system itself. What do you think to my suggestion to discourage people from constant fiddling by making Traffic Management cost them in some way?

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 80

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:42:47 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

Again, I fully admit not having played in long games on large planets. So that should be a caveat on the importance of what I say (for those specific situations).

Thought about it as well.
I am also seriously against making it demand-based.
For me the fun is in predicting needs and taking care of your empire in a hands-on way. I like micromanagement actually. Yes, weird, I guess. But I like it. It makes me really feel in control and really makes me feel like the architect of this empire I'm leading.
If I have a road going nowhere (say troops went away 10 turns ago), and it still takes 20% of my zone's logistics, that's on me. My fault. I like that. If I then run into an issue, I see: oh yeah! I can just put a traffic sign there.

In an on-demand system, the only time I run into issues I have to build more truck stops, longer/better roads or a supply station. Problem -> build. Period.
I cannot get a break by smartly figuring out the precise issue and like a surgeon handling it.
There won't be any reward for me taking the time to investigate and act.

Moreover, if I do not want to figure out the issue precisely I can still build more Truck Stops etc. to solve it as well. It's just that now I have a way to solve it in a smarter more efficient way. And I love that.
I love getting rewarded for engrossing myself in the complexity of systems. That alone makes a really fun game for me.

With just on-demand the whole focus would shift. I'd be mostly a manager of armies and a bit of infrastructure and relations. I would feel less connected to my empire, less invested, less the architect.

With the current system I can choose to take the time and predict where I should post a traffic sign because there won't be any need for Logistics over there next turn. I like that. I feel good because I took the time and had the awareness to check beforehand and get the reward of smooth logistics next turn. With an on-demand system I needn't bother at all. And I will lose something really fun.

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 81

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:55:37 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

I do not like introducing a cost to it as it would probably become prohibitive or doesn't do much, depending on your game's scale. It doesn't scale well.
Also, you'd almost need a 'trial system' then because I could be fiddling with signs a bit: is 80% good, or 95% good? Now I doubled my cost. I'd feel bad for just fiddling.
So no.

But I do really understand your point and it's a great point.

Just not sure if it's a great point for this system.

Let me think...

Ok, what I can see is a building called 'Logistics Manager Training Center'. Can only be built in hexes with an SHQ.
Every turn that there are 0 black bottlenecks the Logistics Managers there get xp.
After a number of turns from having the building operational (maybe 25? could maybe scale with map size or speed setting), they graduate and under the Governor's Zone you can set 'Appoint Logistics Manager' (it's a tick box).

Now all Logistics of that zone are handled perfectly.

It saves you the trouble of dealing with older zones that don't really have your focus anyway. Newer zones (newer SHQ's) still need to be managed though.
Balance can be done by building cost, xp gain, xp gain constraints, xp requirement to 'graduate', appointment cost even if that's desired. Lots of knobs.

Cost/upkeep should be high enough so that people like me can still micromanage ourselves and save a non-trivial amount of resources.

The only problem I see here is that it might be very difficult to program a system that handles logistics 100% efficiently, because if that was easy Vic would have definitely done so for the AI!

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/10/2020 1:57:32 PM >

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 82

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 1:58:56 PM

DeltaV112

Posts: 45
Joined: 10/16/2014
Status: offline

My response would be that as-is, having a penalty to changing traffic signs would make the game unplayable when conquering a major. They build a huge mess of roads and then need many, many traffic signs to get any throughput past it. You'd also run into that problem with shortages related to sudden demand/supply shocks, when you might need to alter supply flow to get as much as possible out of the shortage.

Placing limits to prevent micro has its place but I don't think supply is it. It's basically putting a more annoying tax on an already annoying issue and will just penalize mistakes harshly(i.e. now you need to get your sign placement right on the first try) and making it a serious balance concern. As-is it's just a time sink, making it drain PP or reduce BP generation has broader implications.

I don't think that making a system automated means it shouldn't be in the game as long as the player has meaningful interactions with it and can impact how it behaves. Like obviously you can't control how the AI behaves but we should obviously have AI opponents in the game! For a less extreme example, take how pops choose to become workers and move between cities. This is pretty important as many assets start consuming a lot of population to function by mid-game. You have control to influence how pops move but ultimately it's out of your hands what they do.

For that same reason I think demand-based logistics would be fine as a system. You would still have the ability to influence supply availability by building logistical assets and paths and by controlling hexes, it would just take out the tedious micromanagement portion of it.

I hear the refrain of "build more truck stops" repeatedly, the issue I have is that truck stops are actually kind of expensive! They take up quite a lot of workers and workers get to be increasingly scarce as the game goes on. Rail helps, especially as the AI doesn't build messy rail networks and you can strictly limit where rail lines are, but rail assets are extremely expensive and rail lines considerably so.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 83

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:03:07 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Again, I fully admit not having played in long games on large planets. So that should be a caveat on the importance of what I say (for those specific situations).

Thought about it as well.
I am also seriously against making it demand-based.
For me the fun is in predicting needs and taking care of your empire in a hands-on way. I like micromanagement actually. Yes, weird, I guess. But I like it. It makes me really feel in control and really makes me feel like the architect of this empire I'm leading.
If I have a road going nowhere (say troops went away 10 turns ago), and it still takes 20% of my zone's logistics, that's on me. My fault. I like that. If I then run into an issue, I see: oh yeah! I can just put a traffic sign there.

In an on-demand system, the only time I run into issues I have to build more truck stops, longer/better roads or a supply station. Problem -> build. Period.
I cannot get a break by smartly figuring out the precise issue and like a surgeon handling it.
There won't be any reward for me taking the time to investigate and act.

Moreover, if I do not want to figure out the issue precisely I can still build more Truck Stops etc. to solve it as well. It's just that now I have a way to solve it in a smarter more efficient way. And I love that.
I love getting rewarded for engrossing myself in the complexity of systems. That alone makes a really fun game for me.

With just on-demand the whole focus would shift. I'd be mostly a manager of armies and a bit of infrastructure and relations. I would feel less connected to my empire, less invested, less the architect.

With the current system I can choose to take the time and predict where I should post a traffic sign because there won't be any need for Logistics over there next turn. I like that. I feel good because I took the time and had the awareness to check beforehand and get the reward of smooth logistics next turn. With an on-demand system I needn't bother at all. And I will lose something really fun.

This is how I feel pretty much to the letter.

I don't like the idea of messing with it at all in all honesty. My suggestion to add a cost was merely one to discourage people from feeling like they're missing out if they don't keep changing the Traffic Lights every single turn.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 84

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:03:09 PM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

I rest my case at this point. I won't go into demand/supply system anymore. I think Vic by now probably has ideas on how to address the issue. The additions of different road types, for example, can deliver the best of both worlds. MSR vs ASR, etc. Considering Vic seems to know his military stuff, I am sure he has considered this more than all of us combined.

But there is one thing I just want to point out. I am also a fan of complexity. If you ever read any of my reviews and how I've bashed 99.9% of games out there today, you would know that we're cut from the same cloth. So if I, of all people, go 'Hey, this might need changing', expect that there will be backlash on the steam page. I've mainly championed this issue for that reason at all. I want SE to succeed, and you'll find that in my first post I say that this should be addressed before the steam release. That is to say, I've shared my opinion in hopes that Vic will see it and consider it, not necessarily to try and convince you all to join the LIS Cult, which is superior to all other cults, for LIS is life.

To be fair, I have not approached the game in the same way BATTLEMODE has; he was writing a comprehensive article on the systems, whereas I was just looking for a game I thought I would hate and ended up falling in love with - yes, even with the logistics system the way it is now. So as far as I am concerned, BATTLEMODE is the authority on this, and if he says it is good, then that is that.

Personally, I am just glad that worker transport doesn't take LIS... my personal feelings on the system itself are on neither side of the fence. I only agreed that it doesn't make sense. It is a bit of a jarring experience to see trucks going nowhere, delivering blessed LIS to nothing and no one.

EDIT: Ok, I suppose my initial post was with a bit more conviction than I intended. I do support the idea of switching to a demand based system simply because it will remove the negatives of the supply system, and improve success on the steam store. But personally, I don't really care either way.

< Message edited by WeaverofBrokenThreads -- 6/10/2020 2:07:25 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 85

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:06:46 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

I rest my case at this point. I won't go into demand/supply system anymore. I think Vic by now probably has ideas on how to address the issue. The additions of different road types, for example, can deliver the best of both worlds. MSR vs ASR, etc. Considering Vic seems to know his military stuff, I am sure he has considered this more than all of us combined.

But there is one thing I just want to point out. I am also a fan of complexity. If you ever read any of my reviews and how I've bashed 99.9% of games out there today, you would know that we're cut from the same cloth. So if I, of all people, go 'Hey, this might need changing', expect that there will be backlash on the steam page. I've mainly championed this issue for that reason at all. I want SE to succeed, and you'll find that in my first post I say that this should be addressed before the steam release. That is to say, I've shared my opinion in hopes that Vic will see it and consider it, not necessarily to try and convince you all to join the LIS Cult, which is superior to all other cults, for LIS is life.

To be fair, I have not approached the game in the same way BATTLEMODE has; he was writing a comprehensive article on the systems, whereas I was just looking for a game I thought I would hate and ended up falling in love with - yes, even with the logistics system the way it is now. So as far as I am concerned, BATTLEMODE is the authority on this, and if he says it is good, then that is that.

Personally, I am just glad that worker transport doesn't take LIS... my personal feelings on the system itself are on neither side of the fence. I only agreed that it doesn't make sense. It is a bit of a jarring experience to see trucks going nowhere, delivering blessed LIS to nothing and no one.

I'm no authority, I give that honour to the beta-testers or DasTactic with his excellent tutorial series. My only claim here is that I have played it way more than a reasonable person would :)

I completely understand why you're saying this and I agree with much of it. I didn't consider the Steam angle either, but I think on that one... well... Steam is Steam, and Steam players are Steam players and some of them will bitch about even the most stupid of things, so there's likely nothing that can be done. To give Steam credit, it's big, and for every person who downvotes a game because they can't figure out how it works, there's one who gets it and will do their best to defend it from the ... less positive people. (I'm trying to be polite here)

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 86

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:14:41 PM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

First of all, using all caps for your nickname is brilliant. BATTLEMODE is so nice to type.

Second of all, if we ever play MP together, I won't fight you. I will build a road system so convoluted that the very idea of managing traffic lights on it dissuades you from attacking me.

That was a joke. I'll bomb you with missiles. All day. All night.

As an aside, I don't remember who it was that said that LIS is iconic, but for my next playthrough, and every playthrough forevermore, my goal will not be to conquer the galaxy and reform the republic... it will be to deliver blessed LIS to all barbaric corners of the world.

Make way, marauders. My trucks are coming through.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 87

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:17:59 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads

First of all, using all caps for your nickname is brilliant. BATTLEMODE is so nice to type.

Second of all, if we ever play MP together, I won't fight you. I will build a road system so convoluted that the very idea of managing traffic lights on it dissuades you from attacking me.

That was a joke. I'll bomb you with missiles. All day. All night.

As an aside, I don't remember who it was that said that LIS is iconic, but for my next playthrough, and every playthrough forevermore, my goal will not be to conquer the galaxy and reform the republic... it will be to deliver blessed LIS to all barbaric corners of the world.

Make way, marauders. My trucks are coming through.

I shall quake in fear at your sophisticated use of the holy LIS.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)

Post #: 88

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:19:39 PM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

And BATTLEMODE comes from that most ancient of grognard classics, "Super Mario Kart" (and I used to make music under that name and it stuck)

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 89

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 2:34:34 PM

willgamer

Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline

An interesting facet of the game is its unprecedented interactions of dynamic subsystems that are static in most games.

Using LIS as an example (there are dozens of others), there are the interactions of-

* the static demand of assets with the dynamic draw of troops moving through

* the static demand of assets increasing as upgrades are performed

* the increasing need for truck and supply depots with the need to build new cities to prevent administrative strain

* the dynamic nature of administrative strain as it includes private assets you don't control, but must build LIS for

* as LIS assets expand more people (may be limited in number) are needed to staff them

Bottom Line: a massive number of things would need to change if LIS were fundamentally altered.

Keep LIS with tweaks (delete roads) to make it better.

< Message edited by willgamer -- 6/10/2020 2:36:20 PM >

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 90