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Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 9:02:17 PM

MarcA

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Hi folks

I have the orginal version of Command Modern Air/Naval Operations I bought a few years ago. Is this the same as the new Command Modern Operations released lat year, or is it differences?

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 9:14:24 PM

MarcA

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It's OK, I have just found the "IMPORTANT - FROM CMANO TO CMO, WHAT HAPPENS?" thread above.

So I paid �70 for a game and 3 years later they have made it redundant. Nice.

Not only that, but the DLO content for CMANO is to be converted to CMO so I won't be able to access that either.

I assume people before me have provided suitable comment on this state of affairs.

Will I be spending another �70 to rebuy this game? I think you can guess

< Message edited by MarcA -- 6/10/2020 9:15:09 PM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 9:52:56 PM

Roby7979

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Hi MarcA,
CMANO - Command Modern Air Naval Operations it was released 26 set 2014..and when CMO - Command Modern Operations came out 14 nov 2019 there was a fairly long period where CMANO owners had a great discount,a promotion to update to CMO,it is also understandable that given the new CMO it has many news and features, it has dlc not compatible.

I believe that people have switched over to CMO

< Message edited by [BSM]Roby7979 -- 6/10/2020 9:57:06 PM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 10:02:24 PM

Roby7979

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duplicate post by mistake.

< Message edited by [BSM]Roby7979 -- 6/11/2020 11:22:46 AM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 10:22:24 PM

thewood1

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"I bought a few years ago"

So here is the key phrase. You bought CMNAO three years ago. You bought a game that was already four years old. CMNAO is now 7 years old. CMO is only eight months old. A big deal was made about the new release on in October and November. CMNAO is still supported for bug fixes and such. CMNAO still runs and uses the DLCs bought for it. A good discount was offered for several months to move to CMO. Which of these are untrue?

How long should the devs have kept supporting CMNAO with new DLC? How long should they offer a discount? How long before you would allow them to move on? Sure doesn't sound like you got your money's worth just based on the fact you don't seem to play it much or pay attention to what's going on. So should the devs wait on every person who ever bought CMNAO before they can focus on the new product?

I have seen people expect some fairly unrealistic stuff from devs, but this is right up there.

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Post #: 5

RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 11:45:55 PM

MarcA

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I play lot of games with a lifespan of more than 7 years. The one I play most atm is 12 years old, it has just had a major revamp and existing owners got a free download. So no that is not unrealistic expect better loyalty to customers.

Why do combat Sim's have to take down the DLC for CMANO. I understand why they wouldn't want to offer new DLC for CMANO but why remove the old stuff. It's no skin off there nose if they keep it available in parallel with the CMO versions. They may make a few sales out of it. One reason to take it down is to encourage people to move over to CMO. I am sure there are other reasons but I am having trouble thinking of them atm.

What I don't remember is, when I spent �70 on the game 3 years ago, them saying, "By the way, we are thinking of discontinuing this game in a few years and you will need to but the new version if you want to coninue to play a supported version." Because I would have remembered that.

So no, whilst CMANO is a great game, even if I haven't played it for a year, I don't think the developers have been fair with their customers.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/10/2020 11:59:32 PM

thewood1

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So they should have had the foresight seven years ago to say, "oh by the way, we will be launching a new version in seven years, so wait to buy it then." Is that truly what you are saying?

So is 12 years the magic number? Does CMNAO still work? What is the limit for support? Is it 12 years?

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 12:02:34 AM

thewood1

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btw, before you answer that, note this thread...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4785763

Oh, what do I see...a free download? Seems like they are still supporting it.

Also, did you actually ask anyone at Matrix about downloading the DLC?

I'll also point out that one of the examples people like to use is Combat Mission 2. Note they have had three (maybe more) paid upgrades. Note that didn't warn anyone about CMSF being upgraded for $70 or more ten years later.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 6/11/2020 12:06:20 AM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 12:27:14 AM

thewood1

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So, just for giggles, I uninstalled CMNAO. Then I downloaded 1.15.2. Installed it and several of the DLC. No issues installing, registering, or starting CMNAO and the installed DLC. Again, if you can't install the CMNAO DLC, you should talk to Matrix. There is something wrong.

So, I'm trying to really understand the issue you are having:

*You say they aren't supporting it - I showed a thread for a large update just a couple months ago

*You say the DLC don't work - just reinstalled CMNAO 1.15.2 and all the DLC pre-CMO work.

*You say they removed all the old DLC - All pre-CMO DLC are still working and come with the download. I also checked the download section and a CMNAO download is specifically listed on the page of each DLC.

So can you please explain what the real issue is?

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 6/11/2020 12:45:04 AM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 2:14:04 AM

thewood1

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"Command Modern Air Naval Operations it was released 26 set 2014"

Also, forgot to point out that CMNAO was released in October 2013.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 6:35:19 AM

GakunGak

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I have both, plus all DLC's.
Because of my old laptop, I play CMANO 98% of total time with everything turned off, 2% CMO. I've subscribed to every workshop scenario for both.
That's over 2000 scenarios worth of gaming. So the price is worth it. Will continue buying and supporting because:

- The whole Earth is my playground
- Massive number of units
- Freedom with editor. Love my BBG Arsenal
- Can create scenarios from local conflict, civil war, insurgency, regional conflict, world war, narco and terrorism....
- It's like chess, only better

Also, I hope if Matrix creates another RTS [not turn based shadow empire], it'll be like GPS Power & Revolution,
where their expertise in AI and realism will cover
- politics
- warfare
- economy
- diplomacy

Sorta like Distant Worlds Universe, but real life. Instant buy!

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 7:48:43 AM

MarcA

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quote:

So is 12 years the magic number? Does CMNAO still work? What is the limit for support? Is it 12 years?

12 years was just an example, but I think you knew that. I would turn this round on you. What do you think is the minimum amount of time before they disconitnue a game. Is 7 years the magic number?

quote:

So, just for giggles, I uninstalled CMNAO. Then I downloaded 1.15.2. Installed it and several of the DLC. No issues installing, registering, or starting CMNAO and the installed DLC.

Matrix didn't say the DLC you already own was being made inoperable. They said you can't download additional exisiting DLC, even though it was released before CMO.

quote:

I'll also point out that one of the examples people like to use is Combat Mission 2. Note they have had three (maybe more) paid upgrades. Note that didn't warn anyone about CMSF being upgraded for $70 or more ten years later.

Some people have a lot more spare cash than me. All I can do is wish for them the blessing of a mortgage and a couple of kids

quote:

So can you please explain what the real issue is?

To put it simply, and for the reasons I have stated above, I don't think the developers have been fair to their customers. I obviously have different ideas of what constitutes fairplay and loyalty to customers than yourself. And whilst I still have CMANO to play, I think the way they have introduced CMO does not inspire me to buy it.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 7:57:32 AM

MarcA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GakunGak

I have both, plus all DLC's.
Because of my old laptop, I play CMANO 98% of total time with everything turned off, 2% CMO. I've subscribed to every workshop scenario for both.
That's over 2000 scenarios worth of gaming. So the price is worth it.

I think the idea of Command Live was brillaint. New profesionally produced scenarios depicting potential conflicts representative of curent affairs gave the game a acutting edge feel. Which for a modern combat simulation is pure gold.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 8:23:21 AM

GakunGak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcA

quote:

ORIGINAL: GakunGak

I have both, plus all DLC's.
Because of my old laptop, I play CMANO 98% of total time with everything turned off, 2% CMO. I've subscribed to every workshop scenario for both.
That's over 2000 scenarios worth of gaming. So the price is worth it.

I think the idea of Command Live was brillaint. New profesionally produced scenarios depicting potential conflicts representative of curent affairs gave the game a acutting edge feel. Which for a modern combat simulation is pure gold.

I agree. India, Venezuela, Brexit, now GRE/TURK conflict, amazing accuracy.

Imagine if they did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars , they'd have to build their own campaign...

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 10:55:25 AM

thewood1

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To the OP...

I think anything above 2-3 years is incredibly long to add features and capabilities to a product. These devs spent seven years adding real game changing features to the product for free, with the exception of 3-4 capabilities in CoW.

All the pre-CMO DLCs are available for download and I am pretty sure you can purchase them also. The serial number sold for pre-CMO DLCs all work with CMNAO.

Again, point out where this doesn't work.

So if 12 years was just an example, name the game you are using as a benchmark where features are added, DLC is produced, and the devs are still officially supporting it all free of charge for any upgrades. If you can't think of one, how long should a dev keep adding features and supporting with DLC before they are allowed to move on.

This isn't just about someone not wanting to spend money. You are spreading some serious information about the business model. I'll repost my interpretation of what you stated originally:

*You say they aren't supporting it - I showed a thread for a large update just a couple months ago

*You say the DLC don't work - just reinstalled CMNAO 1.15.2 and all the DLC pre-CMO work.

*You say they removed all the old DLC - All pre-CMO DLC are still working and come with the download. I also checked the download section and a CMNAO download is specifically listed on the page of each DLC.

I'll add more:

*You say you can't access pre-CMO DLC - I say you can buy them and just use the serial number.

*You say seven years isn't enough time, or even three years. When its pointed out other games follow the same model, you suddenly say 12 years is just an example of a game that does it the way you want - I say name a couple games that fit that model and lets see if they are worse of better. Lets look at a couple examples of dev support for long-term games.

Combat Mission - Made a major change over 10 years ago that obsoleted all purchases prior. Even with Combat Mission 2, paid upgrades are needed to use any new DLC. And they add no new features in patches unless you buy the upgrade. They are on upgrade 4.0

WITP - A major change was made over 10 years ago that made you rebuy the game as WITP-AE to keep getting any support for patches. It is still somewhat supported with fixes, but really no upgrades. And this is only because one guy gas continued working on outside the formal support structure of Matrix

Steel Panthers - Changed publishers and has split its development. Still supported by a group of fans with support from Shrapnel games to post on the website. Almost all support is OOB, with a few fixes here and there.

Steel Beasts - Has been around forever. Does paid upgrades that add features and units, but they are relatively expensive. Upgrades several times have obsoleted existing scenarios and maps. If you contiue to play it, you almost have to upgrade.

Those are all examples of games I have played recently that I think are 12 years or older. You'll have to do more than throw out a random number years as examples.

Again, the only thing I can see is an issue from all you've pointed out is that new, post-CMO DLC isn't available. So is that your issue?

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 6/11/2020 10:57:59 AM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 2:36:29 PM

Surtur

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Hi MarcA,

We are sorry you feel unsatisfied with the support for CMANO. Though I would like to point out that 7+ years of patches, free updates and community additions is well beyond the industry standard and shows WarfareSims dedication to the community. People are often petitioning and requesting a sequel to a game after a year or two. The fact is that not only did we hold off on doing what while we kept supporting the original with free new features and additions, we also made sure that when CMO arrived, players could 'bring with them' all purchased DLC and the vast majority of community scenarios.

Having said that there might be people out there who are still on CMANO and are happy with their purchase as the game does all (and sometimes more) what the player expects from it. That is perfectly fine and there is absolutely no problem with that.

- Surtur

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 3:16:48 PM

Dimitris

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Just to make it crystal-clear: If you have previously purchased CMANO and any of its DLCs, these still work as before, and you can still re-download them for new installs etc.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 6/11/2020 4:39:33 PM >

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 4:25:26 PM

thewood1

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I really don't think the OP cares about logic.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 6:01:45 PM

Randomizer

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Or facts.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 7:40:14 PM

Rob322

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Dude, a little late to be whining now. You bought a 4 year old game at the time you bought it. The new version came out two years after you bought it in the Fall of 2019. Now you show up and whine about fairness? They didn't owe you anything here. Where did you get your expectations from anyhow? For instance, the gap between versions of different versions of Civilization is on the order of 5-6 years; so what these guys did here this is pretty much in line with that and most other computer games which pumps out a new version every half decade to keep the franchise fresh.

You're basically like the guy that rolls into a party at 1am that started at 8pm and gets upset when the hosts started sending people home at 1:30am; that doesn't make the hosts jerks, that makes you late.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 8:26:41 PM

ultradave

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IMO the DB updates and new features added to C:MANO over the years, MORE than justify me spending some money to support them, and I thought the 50% discount for prior owners was extremely generous. Just wanted to add some appreciation.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/11/2020 10:09:19 PM

Eboreg

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Dude, I bought C:MANO in February of 2019.

I later had to buy C:MO in November of 2019 so I technically got more screwed over than you did but I'm not salty at all!

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 1:26:50 PM

alphali

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Although I don't agree with the OP about the release of the new game, I do agree with him that it is a strange decision from the developers to remove pre-CMO DLC from CMANO store (I checked on Steam and the DLC store is empty). Since when are DLC's removed with the release of new games ?

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 1:56:49 PM

thewood1

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Devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you buy the pre-CMO DLC, the serial number will work on CMNAO. I know I use the same serial number on both CMNAO and CMO. The CMNAO downloader is an all inclusive file. It contains all the DLC up to the point of CMO. You just activate it with the serial number.

That has been my experience with it.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 3:48:14 PM

ronmexico111

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you buy the pre-CMO DLC, the serial number will work on CMNAO. I know I use the same serial number on both CMNAO and CMO. The CMNAO downloader is an all inclusive file. It contains all the DLC up to the point of CMO. You just activate it with the serial number.

That has been my experience with it.

I have both CMANO and CMO and I simply add the DLC/s using the CMANO updater and they work fine (you can also then automatically use them in CMO). Of course, the LIVE DLCs from Broken Shield and up would have to be added strictly through CMO but from King Of The Border and before it should all work normally as before.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 3:52:07 PM

ronmexico111

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alphali

Although I don't agree with the OP about the release of the new game, I do agree with him that it is a strange decision from the developers to remove pre-CMO DLC from CMANO store (I checked on Steam and the DLC store is empty). Since when are DLC's removed with the release of new games ?

I don't know about Steam (because I don't use it) but DLCs can still be bought separately and Northern Inferno, Chains of War, Shifting Sands, Silent Service, and Desert Storm can still be used as standalone games. I know this because I just bought those a couple months ago and they work fine for me.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 4:56:09 PM

thewood1

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Don't argue using logic, facts, or experience. It seems to have no effect.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/12/2020 6:46:09 PM

Schr75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Don't argue using logic, facts, or experience. It seems to have no effect.

That, unfortunately, seems to be how the entire world is working now.

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/13/2020 8:36:53 AM

Sardaukar

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Who needs logic when you are entitled to your feelings?

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RE: Command Modern Operations - 6/16/2020 3:12:34 PM

Mordwand

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You know, although I haven't made the jump to CMO (yet!) my experience of CMANO runs thus:

Few years back, bought Northern Inferno, mainly to see if CMANO was for me, but at a much reduced price (standalone dlc).

Gave NI a whirl, then felt happier with justifying to myself the shelling out for full CMANO (which I STILL got less 50% during the annual festive sale

)

Downloaded the (huge) community scenario pack, adding probably 000's hours of (free) additional gameplay to an already enormous experience (BIG thanks to the dedicated community).

So all told, have spent approx. �50 on a 'game' (I use the word loosely - 'incredibly deep, complex simulator' would be more accurate) which has amazed/ challenged/ frustrated/ intrigued me for nigh-on 5 years now, and probably will for another 5 (Covid allowing, and pending the next festive sale... go on Matrix, tempt me again

)

And all the while, CMANO was updated/ improved with startling regularity by the devs who, having reached the point of stretching the old game as far as it would go, invested their expertise in giving us CMO.

Meanwhile, my son, for the last 5 years, has bought the annual update of FIFA for his Play-box-500, or whatever it's called, for roughly the same price as CMANO, but X 5 years = total circa �250. As far as I can tell, each version is all but identical (save the odd new players 'added' here and there) and with each 'upgrade', the previous year's 50 quid's worth is rendered instantly obsolete. If one bears EA's business model in mind, it strikes me that CMANO has offered incredible value for money over the years.

Just my tuppence worth...

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