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Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 9:39:07 PM

YogSogoth

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How exactly ZOC works? I continually have enemies who can get past my units quickly and easily, cutting supplies and forcing a precipitous retreat. Maybe I missed something but the manual only briefly mention it and nothing else, also I think we need some sort of border outposts as Hex asset, and a cheap militia to garrison them.

Post #: 1

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 9:59:25 PM

Soar_Slitherine

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The manual says the following:

quote:

5.10.14.5. zoC
Moving into a Hex that was occupied by the enemy at the start of turn costs
you 10 extra
AP. Moving into a Hex adjacent to an enemy Unit costs 10 extra AP. If
doing so while crossing a River, it costs 20 extra AP instead of 10.
ZOC points of Units you do not see do not give extra movement cost. This
is done to not give their presence away.
Units that are out of supply exert no ZOC.

So that would imply that penetrating into enemy territory, past adjacent enemy units costs 20 extra AP per hex. The base movement cost in open terrain is 25 per hex for foot movement, 15 for wheeled and 10 for tracked.

(in reply to YogSogoth)

Post #: 2

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 10:06:18 PM

YogSogoth

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Thanks but I haven't problem with ZOC applied to my advancing units. I want to know how to slow down enemies swarming easily in my territory, despite the forces in front of them.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 3

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 10:08:00 PM

Jdane

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Check section 5.10.14. MOVEMENT in the manual.

Basically it adds 10 to the AP cost of moving through an hex on which an enemy unit exerts its ZOC. There's also a cost to enter enemy controlled territory (and a map filter for it).

This extra cost is not so great than an enemy unit can't walk through a gap in your line if in plains specifically, and if the unit is on wheels or tracks the base cost of movement is even less. (Depending on the terrain of course.)

What kind of units did cut yours off like that?

P.S. Hadn't seen the replies.

Well, have more units to guard the flanks? Make a double thick line? Have motorized units in the rear to fend off the infiltrators or foot units to advance and block their advance?

Don't take this wrong, but it seems to be the ZOC is not very strong in this game.

Those enemies you're talking about must be quite quick from the beginning, because infantry for example is too slow to swarm you like that.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 10:13:12 PM >

(in reply to YogSogoth)

Post #: 4

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 10:15:23 PM

YogSogoth

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quote:

Don't take this wrong, but it seems to be the ZOC is not very strong in this game.

Maybe the problem is this. I had militias that managed to easily overcome entrenched units in the hills, with only high mountains alongside. It shouldn't be possible.

(in reply to Jdane)

Post #: 5

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 10:41:16 PM

Laiders

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Joined: 6/8/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

quote:

Don't take this wrong, but it seems to be the ZOC is not very strong in this game.

Maybe the problem is this. I had militias that managed to easily overcome entrenched units in the hills, with only high mountains alongside. It shouldn't be possible.

Umm... depends?

I'm not even sure who's doing what in that description. I assume the militia are your units and doing the attacking as that seems the best parsing.

Well how big were the militia units? How many units did you have? How good was your SHQ commander? What were the enemy? How entrenched were the enemy exactly or did you merely assume they were entrenched? How ready were both sides? Was the hex a hills or low mountains hex? Did you have hard units, even buggies might do early game, against pure infantry/militia? Were you attacking from multiple sides (this is key as this both gives you a bonus and penalises effective enemy entrenchment)? Etc.

That's only some of the factors involved in understanding why you might beat entrenched infantry/militia in hills with your own militia. I'm probably missing a bunch off.

(in reply to YogSogoth)

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 10:51:54 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

How exactly ZOC works? I continually have enemies who can get past my units quickly and easily, cutting supplies and forcing a precipitous retreat. Maybe I missed something but the manual only briefly mention it and nothing else, also I think we need some sort of border outposts as Hex asset, and a cheap militia to garrison them.

This is honestly just a numbers game. Numbers of distinct units, that is. 3 size 7 Militia Groups could not take it up with one of your size 10 Batallions. But they have 3 units to maneuver, so they can outflank you.

The primary way to fill the gaps, is to use your militia. Otherwise the only way is raising more troops:
There is a size 500 Indepednant Machinegun Batallion. About the cheapest in Manpower you can get, but expensive in everything else. And a pretty good defensive performance. Those can hold the flank or the center, while your Batallion Maneuvers to break through.

(in reply to YogSogoth)

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:01:47 PM

YogSogoth

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I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 8

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:09:34 PM

Beorn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

By any chance was this slavers on their bikes? That is the only time I have seen this sort of thing so far (not that I have so much experience), and yeah, I wondered whether they had some unexpected ability.

(in reply to YogSogoth)

Post #: 9

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:11:54 PM

YogSogoth

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Joined: 5/7/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

By any chance was this slavers on their bikes? That is the only time I have seen this sort of thing so far (not that I have so much experience), and yeah, I wondered whether they had some unexpected ability.

Mixed raider militia unit, also with bikers but not only them. And they have passed easily high mountain hexes with no roads.

< Message edited by YogSogoth -- 6/11/2020 11:13:37 PM >

(in reply to Beorn)

Post #: 10

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:22:41 PM

Laiders

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Joined: 6/8/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

Umm... what's the full scenario? Did you fully ID the units? Was it a thick mountain chain? Etc.

Inf can and will move through mountains. When you see inf do that and it will take a little time, react. Shoot them. Their readiness will be rubbish.

If you weren't in the middle of the Himalayas, then some minors get fast units like buggies and tanks, specifically raiders and slavers (and nomads but they get cav, like actual mounts to ride). They may have gone round the mountains or they may have eaten the AP and readiness penalties to drive those vehicles into the mountains. Etc.

There are a ton of factors at play. Mountains are tricky to move through but they are not literally impassable.

In short, to answer your original question, ZOC is very weak in this game. ZOC will not protect you. You have to actively defend your flanks and keep reserves to prevent breakthroughs. You can use terrain to secure your flanks but know that all terrain is passable to determined infantry, if nothing else, so terrain is a deterrent to flanking not a barrier (except water/lava/any-other-freestanding-fluids-that-maps-can-generate-that-I-am-unaware-of which are truly impassable). Personally I like ZOC as it is. It's there and it means exploiting a breakthrough etc. is not completely trivial but it is not some overwhelming factor to the point you have to play dodgems to have any hope of opening a gap wide enough to exploit. It also means that securing flanks and keeping reserves are rewarded because the enemy could breakthrough and exploit in a single turn. You've got to be ready for that if the enemy has breakthrough potential.

EDIT: just checked in-game. Wheeled units such as buggies should not be able to enter high mountains. You either misremembered the situation or have encountered a bug. Again checked, my fresh buggies can enter low mountains but not high mountains. Bikers also count as wheeled and cannot enter high mountains.

Could be there's a bug with bikers. More likely you misread the terrain and were nowhere near as protected as you thought. If you've got a save, check the terrain and if it is high mountains and bikers really entered it, report it as a bug for further investigation.

< Message edited by Laiders -- 6/11/2020 11:27:14 PM >

(in reply to YogSogoth)

Post #: 11

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:32:19 PM

YogSogoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Laiders

quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

Umm... what's the full scenario? Did you fully ID the units? Was it a thick mountain chain? Etc.

Inf can and will move through mountains. When you see inf do that and it will take a little time, react. Shoot them. Their readiness will be rubbish.

If you weren't in the middle of the Himalayas, then some minors get fast units like buggies and tanks, specifically raiders and slavers (and nomads but they get cav, like actual mounts to ride). They may have gone round the mountains or they may have eaten the AP and readiness penalties to drive those vehicles into the mountains. Etc.

There are a ton of factors at play. Mountains are tricky to move through but they are not literally impassable.

In short, to answer your original question, ZOC is very weak in this game. ZOC will not protect you. You have to actively defend your flanks and keep reserves to prevent breakthroughs. You can use terrain to secure your flanks but know that all terrain is passable to determined infantry, if nothing else, so terrain is a deterrent to flanking not a barrier (except water/lava/any-other-freestanding-fluids-that-maps-can-generate-that-I-am-unaware-of which are truly impassable). Personally I like ZOC as it is. It's there and it means exploiting a breakthrough etc. is not completely trivial but it is not some overwhelming factor to the point you have to play dodgems to have any hope of opening a gap wide enough to exploit. It also means that securing flanks and keeping reserves are rewarded because the enemy could breakthrough and exploit in a single turn. You've got to be ready for that if the enemy has breakthrough potential.

EDIT: just checked in-game. Wheeled units such as buggies should not be able to enter high mountains. You either misremembered the situation or have encountered a bug. Again checked, my fresh buggies can enter low mountains but not high mountains. Bikers also count as wheeled and cannot enter high mountains.

Could be there's a bug with bikers. More likely you misread the terrain and were nowhere near as protected as you thought. If you've got a save, check the terrain and if it is high mountains and bikers really entered it, report it as a bug for further investigation.

Actually that mountain range was really like the Himalayas, and I was strongly overseeing the only road access hills hex available but, in a single turn, enemy militias managed to outflank (on high mountain hexes!) my MG troops and encircle them, cutting down supplies. For a game that emphasizes realism and simulation it's not, imho, the best outcome.

Edit: just checked, no terrain misread but enemy units were all mixed bikers, buggies and rifle militias. So maybe is really a bug.

< Message edited by YogSogoth -- 6/11/2020 11:35:59 PM >

(in reply to Laiders)

Post #: 12

RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:40:53 PM

Laiders

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If they were mixed units, they should not be able to.

As I said, either you were mistaken or it is a bug. If it is a bug and you have a save that provides evidence of that bug or that reproduces it, please go post it in the bugs sub-forum for review and repair if replicable.

I cannot replicate this bug of wheeled or mixed units with a wheeled component being able to enter high mountains without a road in my own game. It is possible that this bug only affects minors or unaligned. It is possible that this is a feature for some minors or unaligned. I don't know.

I would suggest that a surprise assault by a large force of infantry through mountains might actually be able to encircle a small, static garrison and I'm pretty sure such actions are documented in history though a specific one does not spring to mind immediately. This outcome does not seem militarily implausible, merely difficult. However, it may violate the game rules as stated in the manual and in-game tooltips.

(in reply to YogSogoth)

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/11/2020 11:51:29 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YogSogoth

I was holding a great chokepoint on hills (a single hex) surrounded only by high mountains with several MG units but, despite this, I was swarmed and encircled quickly and easily by enemy raiders militia, cutting my supply line. I think this is a problem.

A chokepoint the enemy can get around, is not a chokepoint at all.

There is one event where the game spawns some units. But it is broken and spawns like a order of magnitude to man. Usually insane amounts of small biker gangs. Should be fixed in the next beta:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4828652

(in reply to YogSogoth)

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 12:03:00 AM

YogSogoth

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It was a certainly a chokepoint, because it was the only hills hex in a very long and wide high mountain range. They come so easily around it thanks to a bug/glitch for sure, at this point.

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 1:23:27 AM

diamondspider

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I agree. The problem is that these suicide units are a pain to micro against, and it is not realistic to die for no reason (beyond annoying the human player). The upshot is that making breakthroughs in lines doesn't help much, because the hassle of dealing with these runners is worse than just keeping the line closed and gradually advancing it. So more cost for moving in ZOC and perhaps an extra 10 in enemy (not neutral which is fine at 10 as now) territory would be welcome.

Yes, I realize that in a 200km2 hex with a few thousand soldiers it would, in realty, be pretty easy to do bypass like this. An alternative would be to tune the AI so it only does this when there is enough local force to sustain the breakthrough rather than these 1 or 2 runner suicide units. For my taste, I'd prefer it feeling more like a classical war game where you can breakthrough and start to turn each flank, or hold one and turn the other. It allows holding troops to do their job and the requires a full OHQ to do the blitzkrieg correctly.

Note that certain factions could still try to do this bypass with motorcycle or buggy suicide raiders that, perhaps, got a reduced enemy ZOC AP cost... so I'm not for removing this entirely, just toning it down quite a bit for normal line warfare in most cases.

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/12/2020 1:25:09 AM >

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 4:22:33 AM

liq3

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If you don't want a solid line of infantry, just have fast powerful units (buggies, light tanks etc) waiting behind the lines to punish anything that gets past. As long as your units aren't cut off from supply, it doesn't really matter if the enemy get between/behind your line a bit.

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 4:34:08 AM

diamondspider

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That is exactly the sort of micro I don't want to do (and I find it immersion breaking seeing units suicide like that on top of the micro annoyance). Just stating my preferences, based on having played hex/counter war games for 40 years. Combat works excellently in this game except for this, IMO.

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/12/2020 4:35:06 AM >

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 5:11:38 AM

pauls2271

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quote:

The problem is that these suicide units are a pain to micro against,

Yeah, I was surprised that there was basically no ZOC in this game. You end up having to recruit a lot of units to produce unbroken unit lines or the AI will suicide units to get behind and cut off your supply routes.

My current game, I prepared to attack a major. I recruited a Infantry Regiment to lead the attack and 4 other infantry battalions - all with artillery attached. Also two tank battalions and a half dozen recon buggies. But I quickly discovered I had to recruit another 3 infantry battalions to get more units to plug gaps.

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RE: Zone of control and enemies swarming - 6/12/2020 11:08:28 AM

76mm

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LOL in my second attempt at a game suddenly about 8 motorcycle units appeared, swept by my units and occupied my capital. Game over, turn 3 or 4. Oh well...

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Post #: 20