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Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/12/2020 9:59:10 PM

hellcat23

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OK so once the Major Powers start to declare war the game takes a hard turn from exploration / management to WAR right now.

It doesn't matter if your logistics still need fixing, or you don't have the resources or whether you have enough fighting units.

So my question to the more experienced players is how do you deal with this when war comes swiftly and outside of your own plans.

Increasing relations and making peace isn't always possible.

Being ready and having given some thought to where they come when they come can help on some maps and you can plug gaps with defensive HQ cards on formations.

I saw somewhere that you can go after their capital (if you know where it is) while they attack you and maybe knock them out that way.

I guess the question is how can the player stop this from becoming game ending?

There are so many factors that become obstacles to getting a perfect start and a great early game, which is part of its charm. I'm just wondering if people can share how they manage to overcome this difficulty spike which can feel overwhelming.

Post #: 1

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/12/2020 10:10:56 PM

Jdane

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I would have some ideas but they are bordering Captain Sun Obvious Tzu territory.

Use the terrain to your advantage. You probably need to get a solid defense up while you're building up your forces to counter the enemy.

Have some mobile units handy. The AI sometimes gets greedy and sends a unit to threaten your back, which gives you an opportunity to cut off its supplies and retreat. Having mobile units, such as a motorized infantry battalion or two attached to an infantry brigade early game, allows you to encircle then destroy them.

Make the enemy bleed off while trying to attack your defensive lines, and take advantage of any opportunity to destroy a too reckless unit of his, and you'll tip the balance.

Remember also you can upgrade a formation. I.e. beef up a brigade's battalions into a corps' regiments for instance. In my previous game I only had brigades and noticed the enemy had corps. While you hold the line, troops get sent there and eventually you'll be on par or above in terms of numbers.

Find what the counter to the enemy is. It could be artillery, tanks equipped with howitzers against infantry or high-velocity cannons if the enemy fields mechanized units. Maybe burn a Fate Point to get AI walkers to help.

Generally, brace for impact and prepare to take the initiative once the initial clash has passed. It feels overwhelming at first, but the AI can be cheated, although it cheats. You just might have to be patient.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/12/2020 10:11:23 PM >

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 2

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/12/2020 11:15:15 PM

Naselus

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I used trenches. Lots of infantry in lots of trenches. Early on, when 95% of everyone's army is infantry, fights strongly favour the defender, particularly if that defender has machine guns and is sitting in a forest on a mountain on the other side of a river. Settle into your line, using the terrain as best as possible and preventing the enemy hitting any unit from more than 3 tiles at once, and then don't move from it unless absolutely forced to - you want to avoid losing any readiness from moving. These units are not for attacking with so a strong infantry def buff card can be used and left permanently on them.

Heavy artillery and howitzer tanks will break through eventually, but those are expensive to field in significant numbers so you should be able to field some counter batteries yourself by the time you have to deal with more than a unit or two. With any luck, you should have a GR unit or two from events that can help counter anything special in the short term.

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/12/2020 11:52:53 PM

ramnblam

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You should be looking for where the nearest major power is and forming a proactive defensive line. I noticed that when I was pushing out a lot of troops early and positioning them the AI were a lot less hawkish.

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Post #: 4

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 12:06:20 AM

Jdane

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The AI has some sort of free spying/recon to give the player some challenge.
When it doesn't see much of your units in its way, it is more willing to send its troops forward. If there's a formation of yours lying in ambush a few hexes away, it looks perfectly happy to entrench in its capital.
In my current game, I just strategically moved most of my forces from north to south. I'm expecting the opposition in the north to sally forth next turn. I'll try to post an update on the situation.

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Post #: 5

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 12:28:35 AM

Cornuthaum

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Put a line of Heavy MG brigades between them and you, this sufficiently discourages the AI in most cases and is cheap in terms of metal and IP

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:14:48 PM

hellcat23

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I'm still really struggling after a 40 turn battle with a major power. I held ok for a while but eventually they are killing 12,000 of my units per turn for only 500 or so kills against them. I isolated and killed when I could but I see numbers of 1:10000 and even though on good ground, defensive HQ cards and using corps level units it is getting hopeless. The oil costs for just a few independent tanks, motorised arty etc are huge so I can't put them out in any numbers.

I was holding 2 gaps so I could at least mitigate the fact the AI had something like 30 to 50 times the units I had. They have lots of Inf but also heavy tanks, AT guns, units of 400 to 500 APCS. The tech difference doesn't seem to be too great although they did go gauss towards the end while I'm still gas powered.

There are 2 additional major powers so it's not like they have all the map and my spies show they don't have super advanced cities.

< Message edited by hellcat23 -- 6/13/2020 4:15:44 PM >

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:19:43 PM

Jdane

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Wow seems like you're in dire straits indeed. The opponent massively outnumbers you. I would be at a loss.
At which difficulty level are you playing at?

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Post #: 8

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:23:20 PM

hellcat23

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Beginner difficulty

This is my 3rd time I've been totally steamrolled by an AI major power. One time it was wall to wall 4 deep from top of map to bottom.

It's very disappointing to have a good run 80+ turns and then within just a few turns of a major declaring war it's just all over.

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Post #: 9

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:38:15 PM

Kamelpov

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You probably fail in expanding personally i'm on par with AI or more in regular. I upgraded my 1st infantry div to a corps and added a recon unit once it's needed and then made lot of small infantry division. Keeping buying metal each turn if possible to supply neverending use and recruit over 3k/turn around turn 50. The thing to do is try to win time and try to kill minor as soon as possible consider everyone to be your enemy sooner or later except protectorate and client. If you see a horde of mutants/slavers hold the line upgrade formation then kill them with encirclement. I was turtling the 15 first turn due to those raiders.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/13/2020 4:42:22 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:42:19 PM

hellcat23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

You probably fail in expanding personally i'm on par with AI or more in regular. I upgraded my 1st infantry div to a corps and added a recon unit once it's needed and then made lot of small infantry division. Keeping buying metal each turn if possible to supply neverending use and recruit over 3k/turn around turn 50

what kind of numbers are you putting up on your metal, oil, food, IP stockpiles Kamelpov?

(in reply to Kamelpov)

Post #: 11

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 4:59:38 PM

Naselus

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If the enemy can field 50 times as many units as you can then something has gone very badly wrong with your industrial base and tactics aren't going to keep it under control. What's limiting you from deploying more units? Lack of recruits, metal shortages?

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 5:04:16 PM

liq3

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I'm on turn 67 and producing about 600 metal and 350 IP a turn. I've taken out one major power and prepping to take out another. I'm at 240,000 pop (taken out 2 minors and a major).

Do you think you could upload your save game somewhere Hellcat? I'm really curious to see what's going on.

PS. I think I'm doing kinda badly btw. It's only my second game and I'm still figuring things out.

< Message edited by liq3 -- 6/13/2020 5:05:05 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 5:36:02 PM

hellcat23

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Hmm I cant seem to upload a save here...

I was pushing 1300 IP per turn and metal could roll in over 1200 per turn and I could buy more. I had stockpiles of over 8K oil, 6K metal and when war started I had over 13000 IP and never had any recruits issues I think I had 120K recruits banked.

12K replacements per turn though was leaving me with only about 500 IP and I needed to upgrade oil and energy production. I had to buy about 1500 food per turn supplement what I was making.

I controlled 7 cities - all natural zones I hadn't built any and from what I could see the enemy AI major power I was fighting had maybe 5 cities. Like I say there were 2 additional major powers that seemed to have 4 cities each.

I had my militia mostly intact and performing garrison border duties where arachnids and other minor powers were roaming and I used the miltia to stop them nibbling at my territory. I had 2 starter brigades also on border duties elsewhere. I had 2 full MG Corps, 1 was mechanised. 2 more MG brigades and about 4 Infantry brigades one of which I upgraded to a Corps. Then about 8 assorted independent tank, arty, anti tank gun and assault gun units.

I was pulling in about 3.5K cash per turn which I could supplement selling water, rare earths and radioactives to buy anything else I needed.

(in reply to liq3)

Post #: 14

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 6:52:38 PM

Naselus

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Upload the save to mediafire or something? Or at least a picture of the front line so we can see what's going on. It's kinda shooting in the dark without.

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 6:55:49 PM

Kamelpov

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KbYzDtnMTBvw_MutcfXWCzDYofZIgm-y/view?usp=sharing That's my save on regular.
I'm on turn 77 i'm the number 1 got some tank multiple frontlines. 3k manpower/turn and 300 - 600 metal a turn (trader)
great officer on my 1st infantry corps in some battle got +500% bonus just with OHQ.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/13/2020 7:01:18 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:02:12 PM

Naselus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KbYzDtnMTBvw_MutcfXWCzDYofZIgm-y/view?usp=sharing That's my save on regular.
I'm on turn 77 i'm the number 1 got some tank multiple frontlines. 3k manpower/turn and 300 - 600 metal a turn (trader)
great officer on my 1st infantry corps in some battle got +500% bonus just with OHQ.

Not particularly sure how this helps us see what's happening with hellcat's game, but thanks anyway? :D

(in reply to Kamelpov)

Post #: 17

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:04:52 PM

Kamelpov

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Well it can help in order to learn how to manage well logistics ?

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:06:25 PM

Kamelpov

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If i get his save I may see more what he has done too xD

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:13:42 PM

Naselus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Well it can help in order to learn how to manage well logistics ?

Honestly, I think there's something rather more wrong than logistics if he's suffering 12k casualties a turn for only 500 kills back :D

We really need to get a look and see what's happening here, if tech levels are near parity then unless the enemy has got lucky and found hundreds of GR units it shouldn't be smashing him against the terrain to that extent.

(in reply to Kamelpov)

Post #: 20

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:23:15 PM

Kamelpov

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He had over 12K of industrial point so obviously AI is mid late game so I think he is getting wiped due to OOB too small as a good player keep either metal near 0 or industry point at the minimum.

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 21

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 7:38:19 PM

Naselus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

He had over 12K of industrial point so obviously AI is mid late game so I think he is getting wiped due to OOB too small as a good player keep either metal near 0 or industry point at the minimum.

Even so, this level of casualties per turn across a limited front sounds like a multi-tier gap in tech. It does sound like a lack of counters to something - his infantry getting hit by heavily-armoured howitzer-armed tanks and firing back with gas-powered rifles, say - but til we actually see the save there's no point conjecturing.

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Post #: 22

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 8:02:16 PM

hellcat23

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https://www.mediafire.com/file/vo60utnwy02ak1v/e120.se1/file

Here you go my last save.

When the fight started the ai was rolling padded armor and autorifles but went to gauss very quickly. I was already in combat armor.

It's the fight in the lava lake gaps. Hot Gates indeed!

Obviously the sand doesn't help in places, I tried to stay on rocky plains where I could. Economically and logistically I was ok apart from the horrific replacement rate. This fight at the hot gates began about 40 turns back and I would have thought I could make some headway. I even built a road to sneak round the top but another major power took that and blocked it off.

I was hoping to break through one of the gates so I could get to their capital which is the nearest city by the volcano.

< Message edited by hellcat23 -- 6/13/2020 8:06:05 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 8:19:20 PM

hellcat23

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Sorry just to add - If it is just a question of tech parity then that's a shame as it means the game will always be a race. But then I've had 2 other games where major AI powers have roll stomped me with just huge huge amounts of units I can only dream of fielding. Without this kind of terrain with the 2 gaps they just ran right over me in 10 or so turns.

All these games have been on different worlds but all were small worlds. I only just noticed the setting to change to normal and huge. I'm trying a new game on a normal size world next to see if it makes a difference having more breathing room?

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 8:45:59 PM

Vhalor

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I just gave it a real quick glance and your research is indeed messed up. You are far behind, especially in key military areas!

You should absolutely focus much more on military research, this game is all about war, so 11% investment just isn't going to cut it. Also you are currently researching two linear technologies which have highly diminishing returns and very quickly take ages to progress at all. That's a massive waste on top, especially as you've discovered plenty of powerful military tech ready to be researched!

By the way, gas powered weapons are also horrible and a serious downgrade from even the tier before. Avoid like the plague.

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Post #: 25

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 8:58:07 PM

hellcat23

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Aha! OK thanks for taking the time. So quick follow up on prioritizing military research... turn the sliders up basically? There isn't a way to choose your research. Is there a method to increase military research over civilian other than the sliders for funding and discovery vs research?

I guess i ran into some redundant troops at first with the auto rifles and padded armor and assumed (wrongly) that the tech parity was in my favour when it clearly wasn't.

Any suggestions for slider settings percentages on military research?

Thanks again

(in reply to Vhalor)

Post #: 26

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 8:59:30 PM

Naselus

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Your main infantry unit (Guards 3) is extremely poor. It's got more or less the worst stats it's possible to roll with it's equipment; the enemy infantry are basically twice as good as yours. This is probably 90% of the problem tbh, since they're the majority of your defence. If you upgrade them en masse to the Grunt 2 then you'll immediately see a 30% improvement in their damage output.

Note that Gas-powered guns are, by default, not as good as automatic rifles. Only use them if ammo if a problem. Otherwise, Autoguns are about 30% better.

You've had some pretty poor rolls for several of the other models as well - your mech artillery is very bad, your machine gunners fairly average. Note that the AI is on version 7 or 8 of most units, you're generally on 2-3. There is a reason for this. Also, if you're playing defense, there's no reason for expensive mech art, use normal artillery.

You have 40k colonists doing nothing. Don't do that, they're useless if they're sat in the colony pool and that's a full T2 zone's worth of people just sitting eating your food surplus and doing nothing useful. Colonists should basically be at 0 at all times; use them the moment they're available. This is 5% of your population doing absolutely sod all; if they were in the army you'd have another full machine gun Army fully entrenched at the front.

You can comfortably raise a full Corp of siege infantry or suchlike behind the lines here and then next turn use them.

I'd advise keeping you OHQs off the front line. One does not send the general over the top.

I get the feeling you don't really understand the model design stuff? Cos a very large portion of your army is really, really bad designs. The Guard probably should've been retired immediately when you saw it had a Base Design value of 78; the range is 70-130 so these guys are barely useful as police, let alone front line troopers. The enemy's soft ATT value is higher than your soft DEF - and ATT has a 50% penalty.

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 27

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 9:01:50 PM

Vhalor

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I'm going to change the entire game for you right now... you can totally choose your research targets! Just call your director of the military council and choose research!

Naselus is right too, your model design could use some serious improvements. At the moment I would massively increase spending on military research and model design. Really forget about all the rest for now.

Just look at your artillery for example. You're using 180mm guns, despite 300mm being ready to be used right now by your model design council. That would be an absurd improvement right there.

< Message edited by Vhalor -- 6/13/2020 9:07:54 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 9:12:26 PM

hellcat23

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Isn't that just from only 2 or 3 limited options? Or the full list of available ones?

Well I'm superset for the next playthrough now!

I saw on another thread about reaching effectively unlimited resource (The combat questions thread) If that is possible then I suppose that would also explain the ability of the AI to field such huge armies.

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RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please - 6/13/2020 9:22:13 PM

hellcat23

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Model design - yes I am playing catch up reading about the rolls on model design. I wasn't aware of how a big deal it was. Lol I feel like such a casual now.

Gas Powered I just assumed new tech was better tech but I will pay close attention to the numbers.

On the arty I actually downgraded the calibre in the hope of finding a resource cheaper yet still effective solution.

Thanks so much for explaining things. Truly appreciated.

I feel like I have alot to put into practice now. It's been easy to get carried away and push on with the turns but I need to slow down and pay closer attention.

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 30