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Amphibious Force makeup - 6/13/2020 11:44:44 AM

51st Highland Div

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Hi
Just getting back into the game after a few years vs the AI. Its early '43
so looking to start taking back islands esp. in Central Pacific.

Whats the best task force makeup for this from experienced players ?

TIA

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/13/2020 5:16:02 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 51st Highland Div

Hi
Just getting back into the game after a few years vs the AI. Its early '43
so looking to start taking back islands esp. in Central Pacific.

Whats the best task force makeup for this from experienced players ?

TIA

Amphib landings are a ballet that requires many TFs working together and in sequence to achieve the landings. The makeup of the TFs depends on the target topography, the enemy troops, ships/subs and aircraft you have to deal with and what you have to play with. You don't say how early in 1943 your game is but note that in March 1943 the first wave of USN APs (and a few British vessels) can finally convert to APAs (British LCI(L)), which gives them much faster unloading times. And then there are the streams of LST and LCIs coming from the US - take a look at your ship arrivals queue. That will help you decide whether to wait for the more capable ships or go with what you have.

So what do you need?
For small uninhabited islands or islets with a low-AV enemy unit - consider APDs, transport subs, or even paradrop.

For atolls and small islands your troops must shock-attack on landing, so bring more ships than you need to land as many troops and as much supply as possible in the first wave. Time the landing to start during the night phase at the start of the turn so you get more unloading segments during the turn.

For large islands, use whatever ships you want but consider the threat level if the TF takes a long time to unload. Again, use more ships than you need if possible.

If the enemy is weak (an SNLF or less), use a Marine regiment backed up by artillery and a tank coy or bn.
If the enemy is strong, use a Marine Division + lots of tanks + combat engineers + artillery + a USA BF and HQs to support the battles. It's about firepower more than raw AV. Always have some ships loaded with supply ONLY so that it gets landed immediately. Ships loaded with troops unload their supply last.

Always use embedded ships of DD size or larger to help suppress enemy fire during the landing. If the landing will last several days, have other DD+ vessels available to swap in for the ones that have expended their ammo.

If possible have a separate bombardment TF available to bombard during the initial landings.

Always have dedicated ASW TFs patrolling the hex.

Always have minesweepers embedded in the amphib TF and operating separately in the hex.

For major landings, try and have an Amphibious FORCE HQ on an AP or preferably AGC command ship to coordinate the landings. This TF must be separate from the landing and set to "DO NOT UNLOAD"

In waters likely to have enemy attempts at interdiction, have two or more SCTFs available patrolling the hex with react set to 1 or 0.

Have CVEs in the hex to provide air cover and support, and CVs outside the hex if required.

Keep follow on troops like air support and construction engineers in a separate amphib TF ready to land as soon as the enemy has been defeated. Depending on the threat level in the target hex, keep it in hex set to "DO NOT UNLOAD" or further back where the enemy is unlikely to attack it.

Also have support ships like AE/AKE, AD, AG/AGP, AS, AV/AVD/AVP, and minesweepers nearby to set up shop as soon as you can safely do so.

All I can think of for now.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/13/2020 8:37:11 PM

rockmedic109

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If DaBabes, there are Boat&Shore units {I think that is the designation}. They have naval support that will help unload.

The more pre-invasion prep you can do, the better. A couple weeks of naval bombardment and bombing of any port will reduce and disable shore batteries and supply. The more, the better. Reduce the area to nothing but craters and broken rocks and then bounce the rocks and make the craters bigger.

Against the AI, you can have the several tf invasion group all arrive the day before the landing 1 hex away. Then move and unload to maximize unloading. I think APA and AKA {and Landing Ships/Craft} will unload everything in one phase but I really don't want to mess up and have the invasion defeated piecemeal.

Bring enough force to get the job done. Recon, Recon, Recon and Recon some more.

When there is damage to facilities, no more construction {including fortifications} are performed. Keep the target damaged so they don't dig in deeper.

I think the number of supply hits in bombing/bombardment will reduce when the target is out of supply. I don't know for sure, but it seems to be so. Might be an indicator of when supply has been reduced enough to make it easier to invade.

I believe that port and airfield attacks predominantly hit non-combat troops. Planes on ground attack hit mostly combat troops. Hit the airfield and port to reduce supply and then aerial ground bombardment to go after the combat troops.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/13/2020 9:51:21 PM

RangerJoe

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Ships have unload rates. APAs and AKAs have higher unload rates but they do not necessarily unload everything in one day.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/13/2020 10:24:58 PM

Nomad

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There is a lot of information in the manual that is necessary to understand.

One quick quote:

6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.
�� Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.
�� Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 1:34:21 AM

rockmedic109

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My mistake on the unload. It was the Landing craft.

The unload rate is for the day? Prorated for how long they are unloading in a day?

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 5:42:37 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

My mistake on the unload. It was the Landing craft.

The unload rate is for the day? Prorated for how long they are unloading in a day?

Yes, the operations points the ship has when it starts unloading will be the fraction applied to the unload rate to figure out how much actually unloads.
Even starting your gathered ships from the adjoining hex uses ops points to move the 40 NM to the target hex and costs some unload time. If I can get away with it, I congregate my TFs in the target hex itself and commence the unload at the beginning of the turn.

About the APAs, I should have mentioned that the second big wave of AP conversions to APA is available in June 1943 and most of the AKs converting to AKA convert in that month.

Re: Tanks and artillery, load them on LSTs only if you can. They are heavy items that unload slowly when craned off a ship but they can roll off an LST/LSD very quickly. That gives you a lot of firepower quickly and few get "lost overboard" during unloading (although LSTs sometimes rip their bottoms out on rocks as they are trying to beach).

Re: forming the Amphib TF - the many ships have different speeds and fuel range so it is easiest to load the slowest ships first and start them toward the meeting point, then load ever faster groups of ships until done. Take into account refueling the short-ranged ones.
When they are all together and ready to unload, combine the unloading TFs into one if you can. This minimizes the number of occasions the enemy coastal guns or DP guns will fire at your ships. They will fire at every unloading step but that will not be multiplied by the number of separate TFs you started with.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 7:21:30 AM

51st Highland Div

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Excellent points - thanks all

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 7:55:41 AM

LGKMAS

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I echo that.

My campaign against the AI is starting to look like I could attempt to retake a few small atolls etc soon. So instead of being on the defensive, and thinking how to stop the Japanese advance, I now have to have a shift in my thinking. Instead of keeping possible Amphib ships out of harms way while I stem the Japanese advance, I now have to work out how best to use them to start the long slow advance across the ocean. I have to be brave enough to bring them into the front line. All the points above are starting to gel in my ossified brain and I think I might try a small assault in the near future.
time to plan ahead.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 8:35:54 AM

51st Highland Div

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I'm in the same position. Basically repelled the IJA attacks on Port Moresby/Guadalcanal and done half a "Cartwheel" lol to capture Rekata Bay/Munda and establish bases there. Hopefully do the same along the North New Guinea coast.

It's the Central Pacific islands that have got my attention now and I have the 1st/2nd Marine Divisions/7th Infantry and some Regimental Combat Teams ready to get their orders.

Been lucky that by early '43 Allied Air Power has sunk around 6 IJN Carriers in the waters of the South Pacific, with no loss to Allied CV's but moderate damage to a few. However this is against the standard
AI as this is my first game after an absence of several years from playing, so would be far different if playing against a human player.

I will certainly take into my next game a greater appreciation of forward planning, not just days or weeks but months ahead, instead of just repelling enemy attacks. Ensuring that supply/fuel is sufficient, and that LCU's in rear areas are preparing for the Allied counter-attack. Certainly the tips I've view in the War Room and the Forum in general are helping in this regard.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 9:39:20 AM

LGKMAS

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Again, echo that.
I am 8 Dec scenario against a Hard AI. Fought off numerous attempts at Canton and Port Moresby. And sunk quite a few ships doing so. Still mid 1942 and I am getting a bit antsy about being on the defensive.
I think based on ships sunk in the I screen that I have sunk a fleet carrier and two CVL/CVE and I had a few combat reports that I have sunk at least two BBs. His CL fleet I think are severely depleted and I know I have sunk at least three CAs. Blast the FOW!!
I know I should have sunk probably about 30% of his merchant shipping, maybe more, so that must be hurting.
I may be just a bit ahead of myself but I think I will start planning for recapturing Baker Island by late August. Then start up the slot. I hope to have Ndeni as an operational base by the end of July. That gives me the range to start hitting Tulagi/Lunga. And if I put fuel and an AKE there, SCTFs can base themselves there.
I am fairly confident I understand land ops, as I am holding Burma against a number of attacks. But this stuff called water really worries me. keeping my fingers crossed.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 2:26:33 PM

51st Highland Div

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I basically pushed ahead from the start of the game to develop a line at Port Moresby/Lunga/Ndeni/Luganville/Noumea/Fiji/Pago Pago/Canton Island. Bought an Australian Division from Oz and landed it at Lunga whilst scraping up infantry for the other bases.

I brought the 6th/7th and 9th Australian Divisions back from India and dropped them off in Perth for eventual transport to Port Moresby to hold and then push back the IJA.

In Burma the IJA stopped at Akyab, but could'nt hold at Cox's Bazaar due to pesky IJN cruiser raids sinking my merchants, so held at Chittagong.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 3:07:23 PM

RangerJoe

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Where the water meets the land is a nice place to locate heavenly bodies.

Against the AI, if you are planning to take Tokio then you might want to bypass as many units as is possible and not destroy them until much later. They will be useful as live training targets for your surface combat vessels and air units. In real life, some Japanese units on small islands started to surrender during 1945 when they were not involved in land combat. But the idea is to limit the number of ground units that appear in Tokyo. So just take the bases that you need and continue on.

If you do take the bases later on, after being bombed and bombarded, the enemy units will be low or out of supply, fatigued and demoralized, weakened and should be able to be destroyed with very few losses for you.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 3:27:30 PM

Mundy

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Probably wouldn't hurt to have some ASW groups accompany the invasion. Was going to say minesweepers, but was mentioned already.

I like embedding battleships with the invaders. Others like bombardment groups.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 4:34:06 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Probably wouldn't hurt to have some ASW groups accompany the invasion. Was going to say minesweepers, but was mentioned already.

I like embedding battleships with the invaders. Others like bombardment groups.

ASW units can be switched to surface combat task forces if needed. Use BBs in both the bombardment and invasion task forces. If you have a relatively safe base nearby, have AEs/AKEs and ADs handy to resupply those ships and keep cycling the bombardment task forces as needed.

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― Julia Child

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 5:07:29 PM

rockmedic109

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

My mistake on the unload. It was the Landing craft.

The unload rate is for the day? Prorated for how long they are unloading in a day?

Yes, the operations points the ship has when it starts unloading will be the fraction applied to the unload rate to figure out how much actually unloads.
Even starting your gathered ships from the adjoining hex uses ops points to move the 40 NM to the target hex and costs some unload time. If I can get away with it, I congregate my TFs in the target hex itself and commence the unload at the beginning of the turn.

About the APAs, I should have mentioned that the second big wave of AP conversions to APA is available in June 1943 and most of the AKs converting to AKA convert in that month.

Re: Tanks and artillery, load them on LSTs only if you can. They are heavy items that unload slowly when craned off a ship but they can roll off an LST/LSD very quickly. That gives you a lot of firepower quickly and few get "lost overboard" during unloading (although LSTs sometimes rip their bottoms out on rocks as they are trying to beach).

Re: forming the Amphib TF - the many ships have different speeds and fuel range so it is easiest to load the slowest ships first and start them toward the meeting point, then load ever faster groups of ships until done. Take into account refueling the short-ranged ones.
When they are all together and ready to unload, combine the unloading TFs into one if you can. This minimizes the number of occasions the enemy coastal guns or DP guns will fire at your ships. They will fire at every unloading step but that will not be multiplied by the number of separate TFs you started with.

If you have an amphib tf in the same hex as the target, even if set to Do Not Unload, will shore batteries fire at them?

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/14/2020 5:12:53 PM

RangerJoe

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They should not as they are not close to shore. Yet!

Unless it is a narrow straight.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 12:24:43 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

They should not as they are not close to shore. Yet!

Unless it is a narrow straight.

Like an inside straight or a straight flush? What if it is a straight strait?

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 2:27:25 AM

RangerJoe

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Nope, where you sail through and the guns fire at you.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 8:29:26 AM

LGKMAS

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Trouble with trying to make jokes here. No-one seems to get the funny part.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 10:40:59 AM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

Trouble with trying to make jokes here. No-one seems to get the funny part.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 1:38:50 PM

LGKMAS

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Back to the serious part.
it seems to me that all are suggesting Amphib assaults should use multiple TFs all loaded with the same LCUs in APAs or LSTs. with Bombardment TFs, Minesweeper Tfs , ASW TFs and lots of TFs loaded with Naval support and some with only with supplies. With immediate BFs and Engr units, all with the ability to pull the assault units out asap.
And preceded by lots and lots of recon. As well as prep for that atoll/island/whatever.
Anything else we should be adding to the mix? Which at the moment looks like nothing I could put together in mid 42. Am I being too aggressive in Mid 42 in suggesting I could do an amphibious assault?

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 3:13:15 PM

rockmedic109

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When you start to make multi-divisional landings, you will not be able to cram them all onto one Amphib tf. TF size will not be big enough. I am currently sending 5 divisions {with ART, ARM, ENG} to invade Luzon. The entire number of ships allocated to this operation is over 300. This includes about 85 in covering force {carriers and surface combat}. In order to land the entire force, I had to pull all of the British and Australian LSLs. This is my biggest landing to date. I've landed three division forces in Marianas and Truk. Luzon is big enough that I think I can land a smaller force and then reinforce the landing but I decided to go all in.

In mid 42, you can get away with small invasions. Maybe even a division size landing. I would suggest landing at an atoll in the Marshalls or Gilberts. Something close enough to other islands that you can begin using 2E bombers on them. You'll gain experience in what you need and in coordinating follow on support troops. You will also have to deal with Max troop size limits for a smaller island as well.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 3:22:45 PM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Probably wouldn't hurt to have some ASW groups accompany the invasion. Was going to say minesweepers, but was mentioned already.

I like embedding battleships with the invaders. Others like bombardment groups.

ASW units can be switched to surface combat task forces if needed. Use BBs in both the bombardment and invasion task forces. If you have a relatively safe base nearby, have AEs/AKEs and ADs handy to resupply those ships and keep cycling the bombardment task forces as needed.

At least a cruiser in your amph landing TF is a must - apart from providing suppressive fires, they tend to absorb a lot of shore fire from low calibre weapons that don't even scratch their paint - but would obliterate a landing barge.

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 3:35:07 PM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Against the AI, if you are planning to take Tokio then you might want to bypass as many units as is possible and not destroy them until much later.

Yes, good point. I am currently digging 900+ IJ units out of the rubble. There was a fair bit of FOW in this report though, the shock part was limited to a number of mostly tank formations. After 2 weeks rest my guys were back at 80k plus AV again. Most units and HQs are at 100 prep, the rest are close to it. Maybe next time I'll get a better die roll on that.

Also, it takes my new computer 2 hours to process the attack.

quote:

Ground combat at Tokyo (114,60)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 2202040 troops, 35114 guns, 57300 vehicles, Assault Value = 84118

Defending force 1041371 troops, 6580 guns, 5072 vehicles, Assault Value = 26895

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 8

Allied adjusted assault: 45839

Japanese adjusted defense: 23013

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 8)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
89941 casualties reported
Squads: 857 destroyed, 3862 disabled
Non Combat: 540 destroyed, 1894 disabled
Engineers: 269 destroyed, 1053 disabled
Guns lost 728 (127 destroyed, 601 disabled)
Vehicles lost 566 (177 destroyed, 389 disabled)
Units destroyed 32

Allied ground losses:
230694 casualties reported
Squads: 1841 destroyed, 17640 disabled
Non Combat: 146 destroyed, 5098 disabled
Engineers: 737 destroyed, 4786 disabled
Guns lost 3660 (629 destroyed, 3031 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5254 (452 destroyed, 4802 disabled)

< Message edited by Ian R -- 6/15/2020 3:44:14 PM >

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 6/15/2020 3:47:50 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

Trouble with trying to make jokes here. No-one seems to get the funny part.

+1

You want to see something funny? How about a picture of the TOP of my foot when it was healing an open wound 5.5 cm by 4.5 cm.

The funny part would be if Zorch took a selfie video when he first sees the picture . . .

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RE: Amphibious Force makeup - 7/5/2020 2:07:58 AM

CV10

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I like embedding battleships with the invaders. Others like bombardment groups.

+1 to this: when I landed in the Marianas against a hard Japan AI, embedded battleships took a ton of CD gun hits that would have crippled my landing ships. PoW suffered something like 70 points of sys damage.

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Post #: 27