RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/13/2020 11:38:05 PM

Naselus

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I think the easiest thing is this:

Build a railhead in all your cities, with a rail station in the capital. Replace those railheads with stations if spare IP/Pop is available.

Build a L2 truck station in every city.

If you ever run short of logi in the front lines, build another T2 truck station at the nearest crossroads.

Literally all of this is wrong. But until you can explain exactly WHY this is wrong, use it.

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 271

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/13/2020 11:50:14 PM

Jdane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

You can?!?

I very much believe so, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Keep in mind, I prefer control over absolute efficiency.

This would be a great ascension speech theme.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/13/2020 11:51:28 PM >

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 272

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 12:05:56 AM

Malevolence

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Before you destroy a road network, make sure you turn off traffic signs (if any) at that junction.

If not, the traffic sign will remain, but the UI will make it impossible to clear it without clearing all traffic signs.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/14/2020 12:06:25 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 273

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 12:11:21 AM

ramnblam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Before you destroy a road network, make sure you turn off traffic signs (if any) at that junction.

If not, the traffic sign will remain, but the UI will make it impossible to clear it without clearing all traffic signs.

Cheers for the patch beta test brother. Haha

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 274

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 12:55:04 AM

Jdane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

Literally all of this is wrong. But until you can explain exactly WHY this is wrong, use it.

I couldn't help but underline the comical power of this sentence. (And its possible inner wisdom. Can you guess my avatar is a follower of the Eternity Movement in my current play through?)

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 275

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 1:10:35 AM

Malevolence

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Suggestion made before release...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Perhaps at some point, something a little more visual to show the flow of trucks/supplies (e.g. last, next) through a hex.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4819940

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 276

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 11:44:04 AM

GodwinW

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Yes, you missed a Traffic Light on the Hex with number 496 in the southeast corner stopping flow into the city.

I do not find the Logistics system hard at all anymore when just regularly playing, based on what I need. It just needs a bit of a grasp on the elements that make up the system and you can play very well without issues.

But now I want to see a thread with images of complex situations with goals (for example: create x more initial LIS in this hex using the fewest amount of Traffic Lights possible) as a type of puzzle we can amuse each other with :D

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 277

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 11:46:10 AM

Kamelpov

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Quite easy you put a supply hub at the maximum capacity hex at the furthest of the free movement it mean 5-6 hex.

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Post #: 278

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 11:59:33 AM

GodwinW

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1: Who are you replying to? Not me.. Right?

2: Why put it at maximum capacity hex at the furthest? What? What does your sentence mean? I do not comprehend. In any case 'EXT' Truck points are used before any Truck AP points, so 1 hex out of your city (assuming the city has the Truck Station) is a good place to put them.

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Post #: 279

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 4:43:36 PM

Edija

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The problem I seem to have are city sieges, if I surround the enemy they seem to be raising troops inside their hex and they're not starving or surrendering, that seems really awkward and bad. I'd at least propose that a totally cut off city can't raise more troops.

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 280

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 5:08:04 PM

Jdane

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Well, if the population is already there, I don't really see why they couldn't raise more troops, unless they ran out of Metal or Ammo.
And if they have a farm handy, they won't starve either.
I think you pretty much need artillery for conquering such a city, not only to damage the defenders, but also destroy their infrastructure.

(in reply to Edija)

Post #: 281

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 6:15:55 PM

Naselus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edija

The problem I seem to have are city sieges, if I surround the enemy they seem to be raising troops inside their hex and they're not starving or surrendering, that seems really awkward and bad. I'd at least propose that a totally cut off city can't raise more troops.

It's not really a siege in the medieval sense tho. The enemy hex is not just the city, but also an area several hundred kilometres around it, which may include various resource extraction assets, farms, mines etc. And there may be substantial stockpiles in there, too; I have enough food stored in my capital to last a year or two even if I'm totally cut off, and could probably convert 100k people there into recruits if I need to.

Think of it not so much as surrounding the walled city of York, as much as surrounding the entirety of Yorkshire, with all the mines, farms and factories still inside and functional.

(in reply to Edija)

Post #: 282

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/14/2020 11:49:36 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edija

The problem I seem to have are city sieges, if I surround the enemy they seem to be raising troops inside their hex and they're not starving or surrendering, that seems really awkward and bad. I'd at least propose that a totally cut off city can't raise more troops.

Think more Stalingrad than Masada.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 283

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 6:18:39 AM

Nemo84

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Encountered another excellent example last night of why the current logistics system is simply broken.

I'm supplying three frontline OHQ's over a single road which extends from my main logistics line. Traffic signals set up, new logistics buildings under construction to support the advance, front supply is tight but adequate.

Until my private sector decides it wants another oil rig. And branches it off my main logistics line. So by the time the turn was resolved, that private construction site drew 7000+ LP, two cities had construction stalled due to insufficient resource delivery and an entire front was completely out of supply.

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 284

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 6:51:27 AM

Malevolence

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To me, that's sounds perfect, not broken. Certainly not helpful, but the ability to have emergent problems is great.

Murphy's Law created by some simple mechanics. That couldn't be scripted by the game as well as your story played out.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/15/2020 6:54:11 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 285

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 7:17:54 AM

liq3

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So, here's a problem I've found. Say we have the scenario in the picture. A is a city, E is the frontline, D is another city and where the SHQ is. I need some large amount of logistics going from A to D, for production. The rest I want to go to E.

Now I can set up road signs at B to stop any LP going back to A and C. The problem is I can't set up road signs at C to stop logistics send from A to D from going to B, because it'd also stop logistics from D going to E. I also can't stop A sending half it's logistics up to B from C, that I want sent to D.

I don't think there's a way to resolve this with the current system.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 286

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 7:32:33 AM

Malevolence

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Put your SHQ in City B?

As stated before, I use some parallel routes... especially separating roads and rail routes so as not to mix signals.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/15/2020 7:36:39 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 287

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 7:42:23 AM

liq3

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There's other routes around that'd cause problems with. Moving around my SHQ might not be a terrible idea though. I'll have to think about it.

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Post #: 288

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 7:52:43 AM

diamondspider

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Having 7k resources get diverted because of an AI choice for the private economy is not an emergent problem. It is annoying garbage that you cannot do anything about. Let's try to stay honest about what is good and bad about the logistics system, and this is horrible.

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Post #: 289

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 7:54:51 AM

Malevolence

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It's not clear to me where weapons are produced. I think the SHQ collects the resources (including IP) and spawns the materials at the SHQ for LP distribution. That's my working theory.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 290

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 8:01:39 AM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

Having 7k resources get diverted because of an AI choice for the private economy is not an emergent problem. It is annoying garbage that you cannot do anything about. Let's try to stay honest about what is good and bad about the logistics system, and this is horrible.

I don't assume any leader has direct absolute control. That's a subjective fun factor. Fair enough.

"There are people who have a true talent for spoiling my every joy."

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/15/2020 8:03:39 AM >

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Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 291

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 8:08:53 AM

diamondspider

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Because it makes perfect sense to have to worry about half of your supply driving down the wrong road because someone sets up an oil well nearby... Yes, amazing and joyful game play indeed.

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Post #: 292

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 10:26:09 AM

Nemo84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

Having 7k resources get diverted because of an AI choice for the private economy is not an emergent problem. It is annoying garbage that you cannot do anything about. Let's try to stay honest about what is good and bad about the logistics system, and this is horrible.

I don't assume any leader has direct absolute control. That's a subjective fun factor. Fair enough.

"There are people who have a true talent for spoiling my every joy."

Yeah, that's a rather ridiculous attempt at defending this system.

I'm playing an autocratic despot who regularly sends in the army to shoot up worker protests. If this supply diversion were "emergent gameplay" I should be able to round up everyone involved and place them up against a wall as motivation for their successors, and then it should never happen again. That would be gameplay.

Instead it will happen another dozen times before the end of the game and the glorious leader will each time be forced to play traffic cop.

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Post #: 293

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 10:31:53 AM

GodwinW

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Agree, it's fine.

It does create cool scenario's.

But I could see a notification in some report you can check (maybe it's in the zone list of actions but that's a bit too buried).

Suggestion here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4830054

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Post #: 294

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 10:37:26 AM

diamondspider

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The easy fix is to resolve all of the player supply before building the private roads... solved.

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Post #: 295

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 10:39:07 AM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: liq3

So, here's a problem I've found. Say we have the scenario in the picture. A is a city, E is the frontline, D is another city and where the SHQ is. I need some large amount of logistics going from A to D, for production. The rest I want to go to E.

Now I can set up road signs at B to stop any LP going back to A and C. The problem is I can't set up road signs at C to stop logistics send from A to D from going to B, because it'd also stop logistics from D going to E. I also can't stop A sending half it's logistics up to B from C, that I want sent to D.

I don't think there's a way to resolve this with the current system.

Well, since you can delete roads now, you can delete point C (in your example you haven't said needing logistics there) and make a road from D to B directly, not connecting it to the road from A to D. But I fully agree that's not the best solution.

You'd actually want to be able to put down traffic signs based on AP + EXT used by the trucks (trucks with little left can not enter here) or by truck stop origin. That would be nice to have, I agree.

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Post #: 296

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 1:23:13 PM

Hazard151

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The logistics system is one of the more fiddly and annoying parts of the game, yes.

I mean, I like the game, but the vagaries of the logistics system are really annoying to deal with.

Looks to me that what we need are two things, 1 is the ability to remove roads (already in the works), and another is the ability to set not just relative values, but absolute ones as well.

I mean, an asset needs 100*level points of logistics to function, but a level 1 asset serviced by an L2 truckstation will draw 200 points of logistics even at 95% if it's forked off the only road in service, wasting 100 points of logistics and 2.5% of your supply. Have 4 such forks off the main road and you've already lost 10% of your supply capacity, and the problem only gets worse the larger your truckstations.

Being able to tell the game 'pull this much logistics down this road before distributing the remainder according to signage' would help greatly, offering an effective management tool for your logistics network without needing to fiddle with the precise numbers where that's not needed while allowing you to set a specific resource draw long term without needing to fiddle with the entire network's values whenever you upgrade your logistics structures for maximum efficiency.

And it means that when you send your military down the road you don't necessarily automatically wreck the supply of everything along the road because the logistics values along the road are constantly changing.

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 297

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 1:46:11 PM

Malevolence

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I agree the logistic system needs to explain itself better to the players.

Playing on normal difficulty, I have been able to thrash the AI and have had only momentary shortages.

I am also not stressing about it and making do with the supply available each turn.

Eventually resource nodes run dry. I found that motivating to keep conquering and not worry.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 298

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/15/2020 5:10:37 PM

Nemo84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

The easy fix is to resolve all of the player supply before building the private roads... solved.

Solves nothing. That just shifts the problem to the next turn, unless the player is micromanaging his supply in close enough detail to spot the issue before the next turn resolution.

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Post #: 299

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 2:51:03 AM

Sieppo

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It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?

(in reply to Nemo84)

Post #: 300