Supply Bases are... not what I expected

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Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/17/2020 6:12:28 AM

ydmatrix2

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The short version is - given how supply bases currently work, I see no reason to require them to be built outside cities only.

My initial (and wrong) mental model of how supply bases function was that they "refuel" trucks as they reach their logistic distance limit (ap budget).

This implies building supply bases at the edges of the logistic network, and comes with a few challenges - multiples may need to be build (at different edges), the actual logistic reach of trucks changes with road and truck station upgrades (so supply bases would stop being optimal at a particular spot/distance), and such remote supply bases would present an administrative strain issue.

I was wrong however - looking at the logistic logs, supply bases function by "strapping an external fuel tank" to the trucks (basically adding ap points to any passing truck).

This implies building supply bases *at the source* of the supply network - ideally together with the truck station, but currently just at the first road hex outside of the city . This means supply bases can be at a few central points - directly at city exits (I try to funnel the road from a city, from the SHQ especially, through a single exit, which then splits in the needed directions) or occasionally at major junctions through which multiple cities funnel their trucks, to 'tag' both flows with same supply base.

Given the ideally central, rather than peripheral, location of the supply base I see little reason to require them to be rural buildings only.

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/17/2020 8:14:09 AM

Vhalor

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It's a bit strange, I agree, because it leads to exactly the behavior in your image. Build a supply depot outside and have everything move through that hex. Even if the distance is actually longer and original roads become useless...

(in reply to ydmatrix2)

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/17/2020 8:36:11 AM

Nemo84

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That seems rather wasteful, because in that case your supply base is only servicing a single truck station.

Build the base in the middle between two truck stations, and now both are serviced by a single base. Build it at a major intersection, and you can service even more truck stations. I've had one supply base servicing 9 truck stations, simply by putting it in the right spot.

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/17/2020 9:12:33 AM

ydmatrix2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
That seems rather wasteful, because in that case your supply base is only servicing a single truck station.

Build the base in the middle between two truck stations, and now both are serviced by a single base. Build it at a major intersection, and you can service even more truck stations. I've had one supply base servicing 9 truck stations, simply by putting it in the right spot.

That depends...
If the road splits into multiple directions - it's best to put the supply base at a common point, at the origin. In this screenshot, this is the capital/SHQ with a level 5 truck station supplying most of the map.

In other cases, as I've noted, I've indeed put the supply bases at an intersection from multiple cities. However, supply bases are pretty cheap to build and operate, so their cost is a secondary concern. More important is to tag the supply flow in all the important directions (easier to do at the source usually), and ideally be within 6 hexes of a city (to not cause administrative strain in the city, hurting production).

< Message edited by ydmatrix2 -- 6/17/2020 9:14:10 AM >

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/17/2020 11:58:47 AM

GodwinW

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Pure balance reasons. I am pretty sure of it.

I rather like it like this, it's another opportunity for it to matter strategically. Kinda cool to have to liberate a supply base for example.
It is an ingredient for possible cool emergent stories/gameplay.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/17/2020 11:59:20 AM >

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/21/2020 10:21:20 PM

MatthewVilter

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It seems pretty clear to me that Supply Bases should work the way the OP (and I) originally thought. Reading the manual definitely gave me the impression that that's how they are intended to work.

Instead of tracking movement points from their start point and their supply base separately logistics points should "top up" their movement points as they pass stations and bases. Right? Is there a gameplay or realism argument otherwise?

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/21/2020 10:32:43 PM

Malevolence

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Supply Bases provide Truck Action Points-- not Truck Points.

The name is terrible. It has been mentioned a number of times. They also don't extend.

The best place to build them is situational.

Ideally you place them at the hex before you have the first reduction in Truck Points.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                 | hex 0         |  hex 1  |  hex 2  |  hex 3  |  hex 4  |    hex 5    |  hex 6  |  hex 7  |  hex 8  |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| without supply  |               |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
| base            | truck station |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
|                 | 1000 TP       | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP     | 900 TP  | 800 TP  | 700 TP  |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| with supply     |               |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
| base            | truck station |         |         |         |         | supply base |         |         |         |       |
|                 | 1000 TP       | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP     | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/21/2020 10:44:25 PM >

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/21/2020 11:26:00 PM

MatthewVilter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Supply Bases provide Truck Action Points-- not Truck Points.

I know. Oh sorry I see that I was writing "movement points" instead of "action points" and "logistics points" instead of "truck points" my bad.

quote:

The name is terrible. It has been mentioned a number of times. They also don't extend.

They don't extend what?

quote:

The best place to build them is situational.

Ideally you place them at the hex before you have the first reduction in Truck Points.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                 | hex 0         |  hex 1  |  hex 2  |  hex 3  |  hex 4  |    hex 5    |  hex 6  |  hex 7  |  hex 8  |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| without supply  |               |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
| base            | truck station |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
|                 | 1000 TP       | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP     | 900 TP  | 800 TP  | 700 TP  |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| with supply     |               |         |         |         |         |             |         |         |         |       |
| base            | truck station |         |         |         |         | supply base |         |         |         |       |
|                 | 1000 TP       | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP     | 1000 TP | 1000 TP | 1000 TP |  etc  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it stands I don't think it matters � if you build a supply base closer to the truck station (e.g. in hex 1 or 3) you should get the same results.

(in reply to Malevolence)

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 1:01:30 AM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

It seems pretty clear to me that Supply Bases should work the way the OP (and I) originally thought. Reading the manual definitely gave me the impression that that's how they are intended to work.

Instead of tracking movement points from their start point and their supply base separately logistics points should "top up" their movement points as they pass stations and bases. Right? Is there a gameplay or realism argument otherwise?

No I don't think you really want that. It will get increasingly complex to figure out why and how things work if you have multiple truck stops bringing trucks with varying amounts of AP left to Supply Bases and either not benefitting or benefitting. It will be a mess. Try figuring out where to put a Supply Base to be the most efficient in that case! Can't put it close to any truck station in order for the points not to be wasted. Even more Supply Stations will need to be built (as roads tend to split as they get longer) and your logistics would be even weaker to enemy attack.

Imo it's a really good thing that it works like jerrycans that the trucks pick up from those stations, not like a regular gas station where they fill the tank.

(in reply to MatthewVilter)

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 1:05:33 AM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Ideally you place them at the hex before you have the first reduction in Truck Points.

No you should build them as close to the Truck station as possible because roads may split (now or later), the further along you are. So the closer to the truck station the less chance you need another supply station for another branch later.
Also, better to defend (if truck stop is in city).

I guess you could say that when the road has 2 truck stations that you may want to put a supply base in the middle, but chances are you'll get another city connected to those 2 which then eventually send trucks down there as well and.. well, it's in the end less hassle to build them close-by, and for me I think easier to keep track of as well.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/22/2020 1:06:13 AM >

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 3:53:38 AM

Malevolence

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Yes, you want to keep one supply base at equal distance between two truck stations. Just within the Truck Action point range of the Truck Stations. This is also a good place for road junctions if needed.

These logistics routes are not something a player wants to leave to chance. Within your rear area zones, you should have tightly controlled, efficient logistic routes to connect zones and ultimately connect multiple SHQ's. LP's should not be branching on your connection routes (i.e. interior lines of communication).

Multiple supply bases do not extend. Truck Action Point Extensions are not cumulative and constructing another Supply Base does increase the range any further. I believe they are specifically designed to sit between two truck stations. You are building a logistics chain using this pattern.

Ostensibly, a Supply Base III should create a perfectly efficient supply route between two Truck Station I's at 20 hexes distant.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Supply Base I   |  +50 Truck Action Point Extension   |  extended ~5 hex  |
| Supply Base II  |  +75 Truck Action Point Extension   |  extended ~7 hex  |
| Supply Base III |  +100 Truck Action Point Extension  |  extended ~10 hex |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind, I prefer control over absolute efficiency. I try not to co-locate roads and rail lines, because it reduces my control of stop lights. Take this advice with that bias in mind.

I also suggested elsewhere I'd prefer other more natural options (mobile logistics units, main supply route, actual zone supply bases), because this placement is too situational.

That said, this is the asset we have, so I wanted to answer the question based on the game's design at this moment.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/22/2020 4:15:34 AM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 4:35:04 AM

MatthewVilter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

No I don't think you really want that. It will get increasingly complex to figure out why and how things work if you have multiple truck stops bringing trucks with varying amounts of AP left to Supply Bases and either not benefitting or benefitting. It will be a mess. Try figuring out where to put a Supply Base to be the most efficient in that case! Can't put it close to any truck station in order for the points not to be wasted. Even more Supply Stations will need to be built (as roads tend to split as they get longer) and your logistics would be even weaker to enemy attack.

Imo it's a really good thing that it works like jerrycans that the trucks pick up from those stations, not like a regular gas station where they fill the tank.

I don't think I've really made myself clear because what I'm proposing would definitely not be overly complicated. (It would make your logistics network more spread out and potentially vulnerable to enemy attack but I see that as a good thing.)

I'm not sure how it would all work. Right now the way stations and bases upgrade involves a lot of fiddly numbers and the way the two work fundamentally differently adds complexity. As I explain the alternative I'm imagining I ask you to excuse some hand waving as far as exactly what the numbers would be and what all the stats for upgrades would be and so on.

I propose:

Truck stations (motorpools/maintenance yards) and supply bases (gas stations/rest stops) both serve the function of refueling trucks that pass-through or start in their hex.

Truck stations would send out truck logistics points each turn (as they do now).

Each truck (really each packet of truck logistics points but bear with me) would have fuel/range points that would function as action points do now.

A truck passing through a station or base would restore it's range points to full. (Note that this means that stations don't necessarily have a range advantage over bases. Idk if that is a major problem.)

Under this system an ideal logistics network would have one or more stations surrounded/interconnected by bases spaced out such that each is just within range of its neighbors. However the details of road layout, intersections, and strategic vulnerability should encourage the player to adapt their layout to their circumstances.

Some notes:

I suppose that truck logistics points would start to taper off after they run out of range much the same way they do now. So for example you might have full points within 5 hexes of your city and then some points in the next five hexes and if you build a base at hex 5 you have would have full points out to 10 hexes and some and points in hexes 11 to 15. Since these extra hexes of range with tapering away points are basically a bonus that each truck gets once per turn/deployment this is an effect you could buff if you wanted to emphasize that a loan truck station is significantly better than half as good as a truck station supported by a supply base.

Getting a little more into the nitty-gritty it seems like it should be feasible (and fairly intuitive for the player) to actually track the fuel consumption of the logistics network under this system. When a logistics point is consumed it is understood that that means a truck drove such-and-such path to get there so it should be easy to see where fuel was used along the way to refuel the truck.

As far as upgrades go for sanity sake it seems obvious to me that individual truck range should no longer be effected. Instead I am (rather vaguely) imagining a bandwidth based system where bases can't actually refill _every_ truck coming into their hex but only the first however-many based on their level. I suppose this is where things could start to get dangerously complicated with the bottlenecking of logistics points themselves but in principle I don't think it's actually a more difficult problem than what the player is asked to deal with under the current system.

(in reply to GodwinW)

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 4:57:04 AM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

*snip*

I believe the logistic system uses a graph traversal (from recipient to source) and then deducts the weighted logistics points from each node (i.e. hex) if a successful path is found. If a path is not found, the request fails.

Before that is done for all movement, each node has TP's and RP's summed to establish the available LP in each node. That is the Initial Points graph you see with that map overlay.

The interesting part is what recipients are tested first in the loop method. They are the most likely to receive their request and also to block those that come later.

I believe, at the most basic, the priority is zone internal, then zones to SHQ, then from SHQ to others.

The player is able to set target percentages for number of LP's allocated to each of these priorities.

I add this simply for your consideration as well.

Any assets, etc. you suggest will likely need to fit into this methodology unless some significant changes are planned.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/22/2020 5:08:25 AM >

_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 5:32:25 AM

MatthewVilter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I add this simply for your consideration as well.

Thanks!

quote:

I believe the logistic system uses a graph traversal (from recipient to source) and then deducts the weighted logistics points from each node (i.e. hex) if a successful path is found. If a path is not found, the request fails.

Before that is done for all movement, each node has TP's and RP's summed to establish the available LP in each node. That is the Initial Points graph you see with that map overlay.

Yes, indeed. I believe all the critical components of my proposal deal exclusively with the generation of that Initial Points graph.

My ideas about fuel consumption tracking and truck servicing bandwidth are a lot more vague and, I would say, subject to expediency of implementation.

As far as asset level/upgrade stats are concerned honestly I would be happy if Supply Bases and Truck Stations were combined with level 1 providing fuel and levels 2+ providing increasing numbers of trucks but that might just be me.

(in reply to Malevolence)

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 1:59:59 PM

btonasse

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Independently of how it SHOULD work, the manual should reflect how it actually works. IMO the manual is pretty much corroborates what the OP says.

Incidentally I have a question about supply bases stacking. Is it only considered stacking if you have two supply bases in a row before another source of LPs is found?

< Message edited by btonasse -- 6/22/2020 2:01:02 PM >

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 2:13:16 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Independently of how it SHOULD work, the manual should reflect how it actually works. IMO the manual is pretty much corroborates what the OP says.

Incidentally I have a question about supply bases stacking. Is it only considered stacking if you have two supply bases in a row before another source of LPs is found?

Each truck line send out by each truck stop is counting their own "Extension points". They are not cumulative.

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RE: Supply Bases are... not what I expected - 6/22/2020 3:28:56 PM

Destragon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ydmatrix2
My initial (and wrong) mental model of how supply bases function was that they "refuel" trucks as they reach their logistic distance limit (ap budget).

I absolutely thought the same at first and I agree that the manual teaches it this way.
I would kinda prefer if they worked as "refueling" the truck action points, instead adding onto them in addition, because that sounds more thematically appropriate.
But if that's not gonna happen, I would like their building requirement to be changed from "not allowed in cities" to "not allowed on the same tile as a truck station". Having them on the same tile as a truck station just feels supremely weird, to the point where they should really just be an upgrade to the truck station instead of a whole separate asset.

(in reply to ydmatrix2)

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