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Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas to m... - 6/20/2020 9:32:58 AM   
Ekaton


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Joined: 9/30/2013
From: The War Room
Status: offline 		There are many types of engines beyond diesel/gasoline, and adding these would definitely be a big step towards making this game a bit more realistic, particularly as worlds without life lack oil deposits. In my last playthrough, I discovered two GR devices that collect energy from the atmosphere, meaning that I was swimming in energy relatively early in my game, and yet had constant problems with fuel - not very realistic.

Here are some alternatives:
1) Electric engine - very popular in the early 1900s for luxury cars, it suffered from short range. It should, however, be a tier 1 tech, with a severely restricted range. It would probably require its own truck depots, with fewer points, before it gets upgraded similar to other technology boosts - the main problem is not to create a proper engine, but how to store the energy - frequent depots would solve that. With proper upgrades, these could have a longer range than diesel. The only thing required would be to make units use energy rather than fuel, but perhaps an energy-to-fuel conversion facility to simulate recharging would do the trick instead?
2) Steam - coal, wood, perhaps alien plant forms. More important for trains than for trucks, but can certainly provide a viable alternative. Nazi Germany used wood-powered trucks as an emergency measure in WWII. Mechanics-wise, it would be nice to see a facility that converts these to fuel - it's relatively easy to convert a conventional truck to use this as propulsion so it makes sense.
3) Stirling engines - not for trucks though, probably, but it could be a great upgrade for your existing power plants on cold planets - they're generating a lot of heat anyway, so you can make good use of that temperature difference to produce even more power!

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 10:27:47 AM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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Status: offline 		Electric engines are already in the game, they're just a tier 3 tech rather than tier 1.

(in reply to Ekaton)
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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 11:21:56 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Electric engines are already in the game, they're just a tier 3 tech rather than tier 1.

Yeah they come way, way to late. Particulary for a moon, where the original colonsits propably used them. Particulary jarring is that the tech is 18th century. The only reason we did not develop it on Earth? Abundant Fossile fuel!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4835260

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/20/2020 11:22:22 AM >

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 3:49:50 PM   
Ekaton


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From: The War Room
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Electric engines are already in the game, they're just a tier 3 tech rather than tier 1.

Yeah they come way, way to late. Particulary for a moon, where the original colonsits propably used them. Particulary jarring is that the tech is 18th century. The only reason we did not develop it on Earth? Abundant Fossile fuel!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4835260


That's pretty much the point. Electric engines should be a valid option from the beginning, to adapt to different planet possibilities, and they're pretty much as easy to build and develop as combustion. It makes no sense that combustion engines would see much use on planets without fossil fuels.

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 4:53:02 PM   
Falke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

That's pretty much the point. Electric engines should be a valid option from the beginning, to adapt to different planet possibilities, and they're pretty much as easy to build and develop as combustion. It makes no sense that combustion engines would see much use on planets without fossil fuels.


Yes Electric engines are easy to build. Effective Batteries are not. This problem is what makes them useless for Vehicles.

The Tier 3 is justifiable since it would include effective batteries.
To run a combustion engine you basically just need to be able to produce alchohol. which is very low tech.

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 5:05:07 PM   
FAA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

That's pretty much the point. Electric engines should be a valid option from the beginning, to adapt to different planet possibilities, and they're pretty much as easy to build and develop as combustion. It makes no sense that combustion engines would see much use on planets without fossil fuels.


Yes Electric engines are easy to build. Effective Batteries are not. This problem is what makes them useless for Vehicles.

The Tier 3 is justifiable since it would include effective batteries.
To run a combustion engine you basically just need to be able to produce alchohol. which is very low tech.


That’s true, but it’s likely that a planet without fuel would hold onto these techs, rather than combustion engines. It could have a choice for the player to pick one or the other, with electric being worse of the two - maybe 2 hexes range, requiring a lot of recharging stations, but being doable.

I think we need to take into consideration that life somehow survived - if they could keep complex tech to build farming domes and exosuits, they could have preserved some decent batteries.

< Message edited by FAA -- 6/20/2020 5:07:35 PM >

(in reply to Falke)
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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 5:21:49 PM   
Twotribes


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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Aren't electric engines weak on the power to weight transfer? Further most planets have a power problem right off the bat so why would the people want to use precious power to run vehicles when corn alcohol will do?

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Post #: 7
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 5:30:46 PM   
Ekaton


Posts: 254
Joined: 9/30/2013
From: The War Room
Status: offline 		It's easier to have larger fuel tanks for long-range lorries but in the absence of fossil fuels, scientists would need to focus on electric propulsion to keep anything running. I think that there are more complicated techs behind the scenes on dangerous planets already - toxicity or drastic temperatures require very complex mechanisms to sustain human life, and yet you can build new settlements with relative ease. It should be the same with engines.

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 6:11:51 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

That's pretty much the point. Electric engines should be a valid option from the beginning, to adapt to different planet possibilities, and they're pretty much as easy to build and develop as combustion. It makes no sense that combustion engines would see much use on planets without fossil fuels.


Yes Electric engines are easy to build. Effective Batteries are not. This problem is what makes them useless for Vehicles.

The Tier 3 is justifiable since it would include effective batteries.
To run a combustion engine you basically just need to be able to produce alchohol. which is very low tech.

We only stopped battery devleopment, because we had fuel to use instead. The only advantage of gasoline engines, is having been 100 years ahead in development. We are closing that gap, right now.

I could live with starting with a really bad engine, but developing it via technological progress. Low fuel capaciy seems to be the way to go. That would give me something to work with.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/20/2020 6:17:01 PM >

(in reply to Falke)
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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 6:16:03 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Aren't electric engines weak on the power to weight transfer? Further most planets have a power problem right off the bat so why would the people want to use precious power to run vehicles when corn alcohol will do?

1. Solar Panels should propably belong to "no fuel" planets, as much as Environmental suits (as the two things tend to go hand in hand anyway).
Personally I started to start on Tech Level 4 anyway. I consider that 1/2 of "normal difficulty".

2. So instead of using some energy for the vehicles, you want to:
- use energy, worker and water to produce more food in a domefarm
- use even more energy and workers to convert that extra food into to Fuel
?

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Post #: 10
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 6:48:07 PM   
Falke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
2. So instead of using some energy for the vehicles, you want to:
- use energy, worker and water to produce more food in a domefarm
- use even more energy and workers to convert that extra food into to Fuel
?


Yes because all of these are relatively low tech to give vehicles an effective range.
Effective Batteries are high tech and require rare metals.

Note I consider that the initial combustion engines are at best WWII level tech. The fuel efficiency tech brings them up to our current tech level and beyond.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 11
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 7:43:22 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		I would like to eventually be able to get Nuclear Fusion Engines for tanks etc. if we can't.

(I know it's a tech, but it's under 'Orbital', so...?)

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/20/2020 7:44:46 PM >

(in reply to Falke)
Post #: 12
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 7:54:13 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
2. So instead of using some energy for the vehicles, you want to:
- use energy, worker and water to produce more food in a domefarm
- use even more energy and workers to convert that extra food into to Fuel
?


Yes because all of these are relatively low tech to give vehicles an effective range.
Effective Batteries are high tech and require rare metals.

Note I consider that the initial combustion engines are at best WWII level tech. The fuel efficiency tech brings them up to our current tech level and beyond.

Again: All that Gasonline engines have on Battery/Electrical Motor tech is 100 years more of development.
Do not be so earth-centric in your world views. We did a lot of things (like ignoring battery tech) in the order we did, because we had plentyfull fossile fuels.

This is for planets that do not have plentyfull fossile fuels. They have to use the resources they actually got.

(in reply to Falke)
Post #: 13
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 8:35:04 PM   
Ekaton


Posts: 254
Joined: 9/30/2013
From: The War Room
Status: offline 		Even with diesel, I assume that our trucks get refueled every once in a while, probably at stations along the way. There is no reason why the game shouldn't assume that such stations exist along the way to keep electric trucks running in the same way. Or convoys with some trucks carrying additional, full batteries.


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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 9:07:15 PM   
Falke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Again: All that Gasonline engines have on Battery/Electrical Motor tech is 100 years more of development.
Do not be so earth-centric in your world views. We did a lot of things (like ignoring battery tech) in the order we did, because we had plentyfull fossile fuels.

This is for planets that do not have plentyfull fossile fuels. They have to use the resources they actually got.


I am comparing 70+ year old combustion tech against current modern battery tech so the development gap is not so large between thoose. I guess in this we have to agree that that we disagree

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 9:15:34 PM   
FAA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

Even with diesel, I assume that our trucks get refueled every once in a while, probably at stations along the way. There is no reason why the game shouldn't assume that such stations exist along the way to keep electric trucks running in the same way. Or convoys with some trucks carrying additional, full batteries.



That’s probably the most convincing part. Distances in this game are huge but there must be more than depots every 1000 kms or so. Diesel trucks need to refuel as well.

(in reply to Ekaton)
Post #: 16
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/20/2020 9:51:31 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		For the whole Battery question, a simple solution is teh Aluminum Air Battery:
"The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline powered cars...the cost of aluminium as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected), comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The design battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost."
A battery does not seem like the first choice for Electrical Car. However we can swap out the cathodes to "refuel". And then later recycle the Cathode, using the same thing that produce it in the first place: Power.

Funny enough, in real life is is primarily used in Miltiary Applications. "For when you need a lot of power, but can not use a generator".

If I was a civilisation without abundant fossile fuels, I would have started using them decades ago. Rechargeable batteries with that capacity would have been a longterm goal for when we got higher tech.
But as we earthians only started serious battery tech around "Advanced Chemistry", we largely ignore them as backwards.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/21/2020 11:24:52 AM >

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/21/2020 9:25:02 AM   
FAA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Aren't electric engines weak on the power to weight transfer? Further most planets have a power problem right off the bat so why would the people want to use precious power to run vehicles when corn alcohol will do?


Power isn’t always as precious as food.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 18
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/21/2020 12:23:26 PM   
Cornuthaum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

Even with diesel, I assume that our trucks get refueled every once in a while, probably at stations along the way. There is no reason why the game shouldn't assume that such stations exist along the way to keep electric trucks running in the same way. Or convoys with some trucks carrying additional, full batteries.


quote:



That’s probably the most convincing part. Distances in this game are huge but there must be more than depots every 1000 kms or so. Diesel trucks need to refuel as well.


isn't that basically what Truck AP represents in the first place? meaningful distance your truck logistics can push before running out of juice (and the flow of supply tapering down towards the end as more and more trucks in the rear line beforehand need to carry fuel for the supply trucks themselves as they reach the end of their operating range)?

there really is no reason electric engines would be any different, they already need energy resupply in exactly the same way diesel engines do

(in reply to Ekaton)
Post #: 19
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/21/2020 12:52:33 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ekaton

Even with diesel, I assume that our trucks get refueled every once in a while, probably at stations along the way. There is no reason why the game shouldn't assume that such stations exist along the way to keep electric trucks running in the same way. Or convoys with some trucks carrying additional, full batteries.


quote:



That’s probably the most convincing part. Distances in this game are huge but there must be more than depots every 1000 kms or so. Diesel trucks need to refuel as well.


isn't that basically what Truck AP represents in the first place? meaningful distance your truck logistics can push before running out of juice (and the flow of supply tapering down towards the end as more and more trucks in the rear line beforehand need to carry fuel for the supply trucks themselves as they reach the end of their operating range)?


I like to picture it as the truck driving having to reserve part of the Loading space for food and fuel, so he can make it.
As the the dedicated storage spaces (fuel tank, driver cabin) are already full.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/21/2020 12:54:21 PM >

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RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/22/2020 7:28:20 AM   
MatthewVilter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Aren't electric engines weak on the power to weight transfer?


Rechargeable batteries have a poor energy to weight ratio in comparison to hydrocarbon fuel. Electric motors actually have very high power to weight ratios in comparison to ICE engines. Electric cars (even economy sedans) have notoriously sporty acceleration. If you haven't yet you should go test drive one!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 21
RE: Engines need changing - some (probably) easy ideas ... - 6/22/2020 2:14:58 PM   
Ekaton


Posts: 254
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From: The War Room
Status: offline
quote:


I like to picture it as the truck driving having to reserve part of the Loading space for food and fuel, so he can make it.
As the the dedicated storage spaces (fuel tank, driver cabin) are already full.


Definitely that, but also repair facilities, tow trucks, replacement trucks, replacement drivers, spare part warehouses, and much more. Logistics on such a scale require a lot of effort, manpower and facilities. If you don't have that, ranges will be shorter and fewer trucks will be able to work that road.

< Message edited by Ekaton -- 6/22/2020 2:15:24 PM >

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