RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/23/2020 3:01:27 AM

BletchleyGeek

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A recent game from Dan Verssen's Games which may give some ideas to add flavour via the assets mechanic to a hypohtetical 200m scenario

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/219101/pavlovs-house

Some observations after thinking about it for a little while:

- City hexes should definitely prevent LOS.
- Battlefield compartimentalization is crucial to get the feeling right. A good Stalingrad game about the battle on Stalingrad itself (as @benpark rightly points out) cannot have ZOCs, or units should only have ZOCs over very special hexes (parks, really wide avenues, big squares).
- There should be a way for infiltrating through the enemy lines. This could be achieved just with modeling forces in such a way that it is impossible to create a "counter wall", or via some special rule/WEGO mechanic that allows movement through enemy held hexes under specific circumstances.
- Heavily entrenched combat units should not be very mobile, or not mobile at all. This should account for the need to assemble forces, and the difficulty to do so when troops are scattered in squad-size penny packets all over the place (and communications can be difficult or only possible at night due to enemy fires and snipers).

< Message edited by BletchleyGeek -- 1/23/2020 3:06:25 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/23/2020 4:07:34 AM

bcgames

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A smaller scale per hex better represents the city fight. All of it needs to fit together with the battalion scale of the game system.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 1/23/2020 4:58:26 AM

BletchleyGeek

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At 200m per hex, and hexes modelling a ruined city, I can't see how you would be able to deploy a battalion as a cohesive entity in any formation other than column. So the footprint of a battalion could well cover 2 or 3 hexes.

200m frontage is what would be covered by two German platoons in linear formation (following their field manuals as if they were miniatures on a sandtable rather than men actively avoiding being killed).

In a constricted environment is too easy for the attacker to be funneled into a kill zone, negating numerical, firepower or training advantages. So an attacking battalion would not be able to fight "as a battalion" either.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 2/4/2020 5:23:57 AM

bcgames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

At 200m per hex, and hexes modelling a ruined city, I can't see how you would be able to deploy a battalion as a cohesive entity in any formation other than column. So the footprint of a battalion could well cover 2 or 3 hexes.

200m frontage is what would be covered by two German platoons in linear formation (following their field manuals as if they were miniatures on a sandtable rather than men actively avoiding being killed).

In a constricted environment is too easy for the attacker to be funneled into a kill zone, negating numerical, firepower or training advantages. So an attacking battalion would not be able to fight "as a battalion" either.

200m per hex for the city fight is the current path we are pursuing. The infantry and tank battalion (with the potential to breakdown into companies) continues to be the echelon around which the game system orbits.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 2/27/2020 2:03:19 AM

bcgames

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I think we're going in a different direction now...call it a U-Turn.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 2/27/2020 3:28:27 AM

bcgames

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Original post updated.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/2/2020 8:19:33 PM

wodin

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So is it 200m or 500m?

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/3/2020 1:19:25 AM

bcgames

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Dunno yet.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/8/2020 3:04:14 AM

bcgames

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OK. Our current approach is...to go back to our original approach (i.e.2500/500 meters)...BUT expand the breakdown capability to all unit types except HQs, Ski Troops, Engineers, Security and Partisans. Generally speaking, the default for a scenario will be for all units to start COMBINED. There will be exceptions of course--but combined-at-start will be the general rule.

So what does this mean? Let's use an example to illustrate. A typical German Infantry Division consists of an HQ, three infantry regiments, an artillery regiment, a reconnaissance battalion, an antitank battalion, and an engineer battalion. In our current approach, this division will start a scenario configured as one division HQ unit, three regimental-sized infantry units, one regimental-sized artillery unit and three other battalion-sized units (for eight unit icons/counters total on the map). The regiments and battalions will have the capability to breakdown to the next lowest level--regiments to battalions, battalions to companies/batteries (with the exception of the engineers in this example--they can't break down). If you--The Player--decide to break EVERYTHING down in the division, you would have a division HQs, nine infantry battalions, three artillery battalions, three reconnaissance companies, three antitank companies, and an engineer battalion...or 20 unit counters on the map. That high level of stacking is now totally up to the player.

Our goal in taking this approach is to keep the stacking low while re-introducing the various unit capabilities that made Desert War interesting to play.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/15/2020 11:22:15 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

Our goal in taking this approach is to keep the stacking low while re-introducing the various unit capabilities that made Desert War interesting to play.

This sounds like a plan - you will never really get rid of the problem of representing stacks on a hex and counter game. I keep checking this forum regularly (like once every fortnight or so). Looking forward to future updates

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/15/2020 3:02:43 PM

Okayrun3254

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I have been playing Tough Old Gut - Salerno, and I have been learning how to handle the company sized units. I am learning how a armored company can be powerful with the shock ability, but also vulnerable to air attack when it in a hex without other units. There have been times when I would like to break down a battalion into company sized units to defend a larger area, or on the offensive to cut off or surround a enemy unit. Its a tricky balance between unit size, scale, etc. Maybe a way to keep stack density down is to make company sized units 1.25 or 1.5 stacking points instead of 1 point. My reasoning is that even though a battalion is 3 stacking points, A hex with multiple company sized units would not be as efficiently organized into formations as a battalion unit, so there would be a limit for stacking multiple company sized units.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/17/2020 5:17:45 AM

bcgames

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We decided to pursue a different path in the stacking department. Players will decide their stacking pain. Generally speaking, units start a scenario "built-up"...IOW, low stacks. If the player chooses, during set-up and/or during play--a player can breakdown or build-up to his heart's content--with some constraints that have to do with dividing combat factors by three. We'll see how this idea plays out in ALPHA testing.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/17/2020 9:50:49 AM

BletchleyGeek

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One idea to help players manage breakdowns could be that whenever all fragments of a given unit end up a phase in the same hex, they recombine automatically. And perhaps a specific command to "recall" or "rally" detachments, so breakdowns make their way towards one of them designated by the player, could be useful too.

I for one miss very much grand tactical nuance on operational computer wargames. DW, or rather, NoV (which sounds a bit like "knob" to me but anyways), aims at filling up a very specific niche that other games just bypass by having (WitE) or address in a very generic and impersonal way (TOAW).

Godspeed to you guys, really looking forward to WEGOing across the Eastern Front.

< Message edited by BletchleyGeek -- 3/17/2020 10:05:41 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/26/2020 1:14:15 PM

Saint Ruth

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Yes, could auto-recombine, though maybe that might annoy the player if they deliberately wanted them separate. At the moment, you've to explicitly order them to breakdown/combine, so we'll see how that goes. If it doesn't work, then maybe do something liek you say!
/Brian ;)

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/26/2020 7:13:01 PM

BletchleyGeek

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"Quality of Life" improvements are always divisive :)

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/27/2020 12:00:07 AM

demyansk

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This mod is not done? Correct?

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/27/2020 3:59:45 AM

wodin

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Ahhh.. was looking forward to lower scale 200m hex. Oh well.

Not sure how 500m will feel, I'd imagine no real difference in actual gameplay to 2500m hex except smaller units.

I was hoping for a different feel and mechanics between the two hex sizes, I imagine as I said gameplay will be si milar. my interest has taken a big hit.

City fighting I think to be of interest a hex would consist of a few houses each house if occupied by enemy would have to have its own separate attack procedure, not take say second house out of three then you have to pull back to first house, all this within a hex, unit size I'd have companies but understrength. This would overcome the feeling of boring stagnation. So you have good size hex scale however a hex can be broken down as I said maybe a hex has say ofour buildings in it that means it has four battles possibly required, or it may be a factory so just one big battle to take it.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/27/2020 4:15:31 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/28/2020 1:37:34 AM

bcgames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

This mod is not done? Correct?

It's the next game actually. But you are correct. It is not done. We had to re-visit the design following ALPHA testing. From Desert War to Stalingrad we went from a unit-capability extravaganza with a stacking problem to a dull MRE cracker with a serious fun problem.

Working to get it right.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 3/28/2020 1:40:09 AM

bcgames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ahhh.. was looking forward to lower scale 200m hex. Oh well.

Not sure how 500m will feel, I'd imagine no real difference in actual gameplay to 2500m hex except smaller units.

I was hoping for a different feel and mechanics between the two hex sizes, I imagine as I said gameplay will be si milar. my interest has taken a big hit.

City fighting I think to be of interest a hex would consist of a few houses each house if occupied by enemy would have to have its own separate attack procedure, not take say second house out of three then you have to pull back to first house, all this within a hex, unit size I'd have companies but understrength. This would overcome the feeling of boring stagnation. So you have good size hex scale however a hex can be broken down as I said maybe a hex has say ofour buildings in it that means it has four battles possibly required, or it may be a factory so just one big battle to take it.

Great ideas. This isn't the engine for what you describe. We have re-tooled the ALPHA. We'll see how it plays.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/23/2020 2:23:16 AM

bcgames

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I have just completed re-engineering the combat factors for Stalingrad. These new combat factors were driven by the results of our ALPHA testing...loss of Desert War capabilities thru generalization/up-scaling to regimental level. I am currently re-looking the Combat Results Tables; the odds results between 1 : 1 and 4 : 1 seem abit out of sorts for the Russian Front. Too much favor to the Attacker I think. Scenario list continues to evolve with my understanding of the evolution of the Stalingrad story. In the end, all the threads need to tie together. We'll see how it grows.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/27/2020 3:02:12 AM

bcgames

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I spent the day re-populating the existing Stalingrad scenarios with the new combat factors (it was raining on the farm). Saint Ruth is configuring a new ground CRT that brings us more in line with Lanchester/Dupuy/former Soviet Union combat attrition models; we'll see how it grows. Building the new ALPHA for the playtesters. Liking the new adjusted direction.

Onwards!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/27/2020 3:16:23 AM

bcgames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ahhh.. was looking forward to lower scale 200m hex. Oh well.

Not sure how 500m will feel, I'd imagine no real difference in actual gameplay to 2500m hex except smaller units.

I was hoping for a different feel and mechanics between the two hex sizes, I imagine as I said gameplay will be si milar. my interest has taken a big hit.

City fighting I think to be of interest a hex would consist of a few houses each house if occupied by enemy would have to have its own separate attack procedure, not take say second house out of three then you have to pull back to first house, all this within a hex, unit size I'd have companies but understrength. This would overcome the feeling of boring stagnation. So you have good size hex scale however a hex can be broken down as I said maybe a hex has say ofour buildings in it that means it has four battles possibly required, or it may be a factory so just one big battle to take it.

We tried 400m per hex and came up with a dry biscuit. The next experiment is with 250m per hex...am currently building the map. It won't be Squad Leader or its modern cousins. Maybe closer to Dana Lombardy's Fire on the Volga/Battle for the Factories boardgames...'cept WEGO. We'll see.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/27/2020 11:00:35 AM

wodin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ahhh.. was looking forward to lower scale 200m hex. Oh well.

Not sure how 500m will feel, I'd imagine no real difference in actual gameplay to 2500m hex except smaller units.

I was hoping for a different feel and mechanics between the two hex sizes, I imagine as I said gameplay will be si milar. my interest has taken a big hit.

City fighting I think to be of interest a hex would consist of a few houses each house if occupied by enemy would have to have its own separate attack procedure, not take say second house out of three then you have to pull back to first house, all this within a hex, unit size I'd have companies but understrength. This would overcome the feeling of boring stagnation. So you have good size hex scale however a hex can be broken down as I said maybe a hex has say ofour buildings in it that means it has four battles possibly required, or it may be a factory so just one big battle to take it.

We tried 400m per hex and came up with a dry biscuit. The next experiment is with 250m per hex...am currently building the map. It won't be Squad Leader or its modern cousins. Maybe closer to Dana Lombardy's Fire on the Volga/Battle for the Factories boardgames...'cept WEGO. We'll see.

Sounds great.

I've always wanted a game similar to Streets of Stalingrad (Dana Lombardy's Fire on the Volga/Battle for the Factories boardgames made into one game).

This is currently in production https://www.facebook.com/russ.schulke.5/posts/1056333104567033

Maybe pick Russ mind about the boardgame and dealing with that scale.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/27/2020 11:06:57 AM >

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/27/2020 11:05:23 PM

bcgames

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Nice! I had no idea this was back on. I was very disappointed when the Kickstarter REDUX didn't make it. Glad to see this game is back in the oven.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 5/28/2020 8:37:34 AM

wodin

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Exciting eh?

The team split so this is a reworking of the original game by Russ Shulke.

The new map looks amazing. Best looking map I've ever seen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Nice! I had no idea this was back on. I was very disappointed when the Kickstarter REDUX didn't make it. Glad to see this game is back in the oven.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/11/2020 5:52:03 AM

bcgames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC
...Kinda reminds me of the dual scale of the old World at War series by Atomic Games "Stalingrad".
I'll be watching this title.

I never owned nor played Atomic Games' Stalingrad. When people started to point me to it, I saw the wisdom of the design decisions made by the developers of way-back-when given the Stalingrad battle history. We came to the same place independently...so that's gotta be good. Right?

We'll see the differences purty soon.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/11/2020 5:53:40 AM

bcgames

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ALPHA Testers -- Sharpen Your Bayonets!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/22/2020 7:06:27 AM

bcgames

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