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Manned Fortifications - 6/26/2020 7:32:25 PM

zgrssd

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Issues:
- it is damn hard to keep a road open vs even minal enemy, raider or animal movement
- it is impossible to just hold a border passively, without comitting the expensive and rare mobile units
- there is no way to invest IP to make a hex easier to defend, when that is something humanity has done for milennia

Worry:
The biggest worry with those modificaitons, is making Major power cities harder to take. Ruins already give 250 Entrechnment, making the almost impossible defensive positions
So those options really should not be adding more defense values to something already that tough.
Of course, maybe be passive terrain effects can be lowered if we have active options to get back up to where we are right now?

General Fortificaitons:
This is a hex asset. You just build it like any other. Or maybe you can build them more like roads or like you redraw zone borders? As you may need a lot of them, simplified building seems usefull.
They would add entrenchment to a hex. Both Automatic and/or Maximum.
The would represent road guard houses, watchtowers, patrol houses for police or militia and even small bunker complexes on the odd hill.
Maybe it could even be upgradeable?

Directional Fortifications:
This would only add defenses to one specific side of a hex. A way to add a artificial version of the "Escarpment" or "River" modifier to attackers from that one direction.
This represents bunker lines that face a specific direction, minefields, coastal fortifications.
This could make it a lot cheaper (considering only thin strips on the borders need to be covered) and also makes it a lot harder for the enemy to use it against you: It only hinders attackers comming from a specific direction, not the attackers trying to take it back.
I am unsure about the UI side however. The game has no way to identifiy specific hex borders as a target.

Automatic Garission:
A fortifications without at least a (token) guard, is just something for the enemy to take. Thus fortifications should be guarded by at least a token force. Stuff like 1-3 subunits of Militia:
- they would be immobile and unable to attack, so they do not need to follow normal limits (like PP to raise them, using Manpower or Draining Militia Manpower & Equipment). If they need any limitation against squandering them, how about letting them cost Population directly
- even with the bonuses, they should not be able to stop 10 subunits of proper Soldiers. Nevermind 20 that use concentric attacks
- they should still emit a zone of control, even able to take back land (if the conquering enemy left it unsecured) next to them. Of ocurse even with a unbroken chain, it would be 1 hex per turn only. Even a small militia unit following the same road should be able to do way more
- they would need supplies. So cutting them off would be a effective way to "starve them out". But maybe their position could allow them to have increase supply stores comapred to normal units?

Uses:
- guarding and limited autonomous retaking of roads
- guarding borders
- preparing defensible positions in poor terrain

Post #: 1

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/26/2020 10:24:39 PM

MatthewVilter

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The inability to build fortifications does feel odd. The hex scale (200 km) is quite large though so I wanted to do a reality check.

I'm not an expert on these things so take these numbers with a grain of salt. It looks like the Atlantic Wall was about 2,690 km (~13 hexes) built over the course of years by hundreds of thousands of laborers. I'm seeing The Franco-German border stretch of the Maginot Line at ~450 km (~2 hexes) also built over the course of years by I'm not sure what size workforce. Those are pretty extreme examples though, in game terms probably pushing well past a point of diminishing returns that may not even need to be represented. Lighter fortifications positioned judiciously by engineers might be within reach of the industrial capacity of our little post-apocalyptic states and still offer good benefits.

On the subject of garrisons and guard posts:

I get the impression that the struggle to keep roads open and borders secure is working as intended. That said, conditions and circumstances very and if the player wants to invest resources in infrastructure or institutions that make "border patrol" easier I think they should be able to.

Maybe it could be something as simple as a "frontier guard post" asset that serves as a muster point for militia and generates militancy based on enemy (especially non-aligned) hexes within a certain distance.

EDIT: muster point not master point lol

< Message edited by MatthewVilter -- 6/26/2020 11:07:44 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 2

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/26/2020 10:56:54 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

The inability to build fortifications does feel odd. The hex scale (200 km) is quite large though so I wanted to do a reality check.

I'm not an expert on these things so take these numbers with a grain of salt. It looks like the Atlantic Wall was about 2,690 km (~13 hexes) built over the course of years by hundreds of thousands of laborers. I'm seeing The Franco-German border stretch of the Maginot Line at ~450 km (~2 hexes) also built over the course of years by I'm not sure what size workforce. Those are pretty extreme examples though, in game terms probably pushing well past a point of diminishing returns that may not even need to be represented. Lighter fortifications positioned judiciously by engineers might be within reach of the industrial capacity of our little post-apocalyptic states and still offer good benefits.

I was thinking more along the lines of Roman Limes in scale. They used Guard Towers that were within "line of sight" of each other. But VidComs and Bioculars can certainly increase that range drastically. They only need to notice enemy groups operating in the hundreds.

Even the inner german border seems to be on the very high end of the scale: ~50k Soldiers over 1,393 km (about 7 hexes)

Again, they only need to be able to detect and react to movement of units in the hundreds to thousands of people.

(in reply to MatthewVilter)

Post #: 3

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/26/2020 11:12:13 PM

MatthewVilter

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Yeah I agree. Some ability to put down fortifications seems reasonable.

As for the detail of how to target hex borders as opposed to hexes: Technically roads are a border future. It might feel a bit odd to click into the next hex for fortifications but barring dedicated UI development we at least know it's possible.

EDIT: Good examples btw.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 4

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 12:21:49 AM

Munashe

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I've also been missing the ability to build proper fortifications. There are a lot of wargames that have trench network hex features, and forts/bunkers would be good as well. As it stands, I feel I have to line the borders with small MG units for the minimum defense. While entrenchment is a pretty good abstraction in my opinion, being able to spend industrial points and maybe metal to build heavier defenses would be an aesthetically pleasing addition.

(in reply to MatthewVilter)

Post #: 5

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 1:07:14 AM

EuchreJack

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Honestly, I was wondering why we couldn't just build a fence to keep out the animals for a while now.

It might be worth considering the "Virtual Wall" discussions of how the United States intended to put up a wall on its southern border that it shares with Mexico.

Hm, maybe radar would be an asset. Right now we just have recon and spies. If I could see that free folk were massing along a particular border area, I could use a poll of response forces instead of the 2-hex apart line of troops I'm currently forced to use. As an aside, in the current game its possible to create significantly more units than normal by splitting up existing units into battlegroups. I know its possible to double the units, probably even triple them, although at some point the remaining forces are too weak to really hold anything.

(in reply to Munashe)

Post #: 6

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 3:28:25 AM

TheSquid

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IMO it would be great to have a fortification system loosely based on the Russian side of Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa, albeit implemented as requiring some kind of expenditure (e.g. PP and/or IP, possibly metal?) instead of DC:B's one free fort per turn while the weather's nice, and available to all/most sides.

In DC:B it wasn't possible to build forts in towns or cities, so the biggest worry disappears by just not being able to build them there. In other hexes (open, forest, etc.) forts significantly added to the automatic and max entrenchment, and additionally also allowed units that couldn't normally entrench (e.g. wheeled/tracked) to also entrench, albeit at a much lower level than foot soldiers and guns.

Those forts were really strong if placed just behind a large river in a forest.

The potential destruction of the forts would also need to be looked at. Since we can do ranged attacks, those should reduce the "structure" of the fort depending on their power and number (plus some random factors), making it viable to reduce the structure enough so that a follow-up regular attack can take it down in a few rounds - if enough firepower is directed at it of course. To remain viable, forts should either then automatically "repair" up to a certain amount of structure per turn while certain (friendly) units are in the hex, e.g. infantry (engineers etc. may possibly provide a bonus to this repair?).

We really need a way to create some kind of line of forts, if we have the materials/IP for it (it shouldn't be cheap - but it should save on long-term manpower costs for Defending certain areas).

Of course I'm thinking we'd still need to actually MAN the forts with actual units - however in theory they should provide a kind of force-multiplier in Defence.

On a related note: MINEFIELDS! These should be MUCH cheaper than forts, albeit built by specialty units (e.g. engineers or something?). To counter potential minefield-spam, it should be possible for your own units to have "accidents" in "friendly" minefields (unless they're engineers or otherwise equipped).

On another related note: IEDs! A cheap way to mess with the more mobile units on roads. Of course I'm not sure how well suited they'd be for this game due to both the scale and the fact that it's easy enough to just bypass roads, so probably not really viable to add these in a way in which they'd make sense?

< Message edited by TheSquid -- 6/27/2020 3:29:23 AM >

(in reply to EuchreJack)

Post #: 7

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 4:27:42 AM

Atros

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Wikipedia article: Salpa_Line

On the mentioned page you can see example of 1200km long fortifications made by 35k men (which is about the same category that major railroad constructions needed before machinery) and the main work was done in less than a year.

Anyways, I think it would help much that the animals wouldn't be conquering armies, but just herds that could move over borders without changing owner, block logistics if on the roads and destroying undefended cities and enclaves (eating or killing the population). Enemies are easy to keep at bay as they are numbered, but those endless animal herds just keep popping and make your armies to play constantly starship troopers whack a mole...

(in reply to TheSquid)

Post #: 8

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 9:12:17 AM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Issues:
- it is damn hard to keep a road open vs even minal enemy, raider or animal movement
- it is impossible to just hold a border passively, without comitting the expensive and rare mobile units
- there is no way to invest IP to make a hex easier to defend, when that is something humanity has done for milennia

So.. basically.. Minefields? ;D

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 9

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 9:25:03 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Issues:
- it is damn hard to keep a road open vs even minal enemy, raider or animal movement
- it is impossible to just hold a border passively, without comitting the expensive and rare mobile units
- there is no way to invest IP to make a hex easier to defend, when that is something humanity has done for milennia

So.. basically.. Minefields? ;D

Except they do not do that job. Mines generally have a abysmal target aquisition ability! Mines just lie around - slowly decomposing - until someone literally steps on them.

You need to actually throw some manpower at it. But it could at least be the minimal amounts of manpower feasible and not cost you PP or much IP as the manpower is not mobile.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 9:29:16 AM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 10

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 10:10:24 AM

ramnblam

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I feel with inherent defense bonuses and entrenchment are abstracted fortifications, there are also shield generators and immobile MG emplacements. I also think the AI would have to be overhauled completely to handle this new system.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 11

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 11:03:41 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I feel with inherent defense bonuses and entrenchment are abstracted fortifications, there are also shield generators and immobile MG emplacements. I also think the AI would have to be overhauled completely to handle this new system.

What overhaul? What new Systems?

Entrenchment is already a thing.
Fighting enemies in (for them) favorable terrain is already a thing.

The only "new" thing would be the hex asset, if it even is one.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 11:04:02 AM >

(in reply to ramnblam)

Post #: 12

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 2:11:04 PM

ramnblam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I feel with inherent defense bonuses and entrenchment are abstracted fortifications, there are also shield generators and immobile MG emplacements. I also think the AI would have to be overhauled completely to handle this new system.

What overhaul? What new Systems?

Entrenchment is already a thing.
Fighting enemies in (for them) favorable terrain is already a thing.

The only "new" thing would be the hex asset, if it even is one.

Have you considered that your "issues" in the OP are playstyle based? I have no problems keeping my borders or roads secure when I dedicate the manpower that they deserve. If I'm worried about a minor or marauders, I'll send some spies out and see what exactly their troop dispositions are and act accordingly.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 13

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 4:12:58 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I feel with inherent defense bonuses and entrenchment are abstracted fortifications, there are also shield generators and immobile MG emplacements. I also think the AI would have to be overhauled completely to handle this new system.

What overhaul? What new Systems?

Entrenchment is already a thing.
Fighting enemies in (for them) favorable terrain is already a thing.

The only "new" thing would be the hex asset, if it even is one.

Have you considered that your "issues" in the OP are playstyle based? I have no problems keeping my borders or roads secure when I dedicate the manpower that they deserve. If I'm worried about a minor or marauders, I'll send some spies out and see what exactly their troop dispositions are and act accordingly.

I just operate in a game environment where there is not unlimited manpower and political power - nevermind metal and IP - for raising units.

I do not have a need to create a army of Size 3 Infantry Battle Group for 2 PP each. All I need is some stationary troops.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 4:14:05 PM >

(in reply to ramnblam)

Post #: 14

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 9:23:01 PM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Issues:
- it is damn hard to keep a road open vs even minal enemy, raider or animal movement
- it is impossible to just hold a border passively, without comitting the expensive and rare mobile units
- there is no way to invest IP to make a hex easier to defend, when that is something humanity has done for milennia

So.. basically.. Minefields? ;D

Except they do not do that job. Mines generally have a abysmal target aquisition ability! Mines just lie around - slowly decomposing - until someone literally steps on them.

You need to actually throw some manpower at it. But it could at least be the minimal amounts of manpower feasible and not cost you PP or much IP as the manpower is not mobile.

In my expectation once a few have died the rest definitely refuses to enter a minefield. It depends on how Vic designs them.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 15

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/27/2020 10:59:37 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Issues:
- it is damn hard to keep a road open vs even minal enemy, raider or animal movement
- it is impossible to just hold a border passively, without comitting the expensive and rare mobile units
- there is no way to invest IP to make a hex easier to defend, when that is something humanity has done for milennia

So.. basically.. Minefields? ;D

Except they do not do that job. Mines generally have a abysmal target aquisition ability! Mines just lie around - slowly decomposing - until someone literally steps on them.

You need to actually throw some manpower at it. But it could at least be the minimal amounts of manpower feasible and not cost you PP or much IP as the manpower is not mobile.

In my expectation once a few have died the rest definitely refuses to enter a minefield. It depends on how Vic designs them.

A minefield that is not protected by someone with a gun, is really just a half-day job for a 100 man subunit. Turns are 2 months. Clearning minefields falls under basic soldier skills, not specialized skills. It can be done with a (sharpened) stick of wood. Knives are a bit discouraged nowadays, as they may trigger some.

Vehicles are only needed if you want to do it fast and/or there is some gun pointing at the minefield.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/27/2020 11:06:13 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 16

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/28/2020 12:55:50 AM

GodwinW

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There are 'megamines' in the lore already that blow up entire zones/cities, so.. depends on the design.
And don't hold too strongly to the 2 months, you'll get weird things, like a truck only being able to drive 2000 km in a month instead of 2 days over a road.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 17

RE: Manned Fortifications - 6/28/2020 11:44:05 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

There are 'megamines' in the lore already that blow up entire zones/cities, so.. depends on the design.
And don't hold too strongly to the 2 months, you'll get weird things, like a truck only being able to drive 2000 km in a month instead of 2 days over a road.

You mean stuff like the 19 mines in the Somme (more shaped explosives that tunneling sappers put under the german trenches).
And on the Atomic front, we got stuff like Blue Peacock or the MADM.

But those were the exception, even in their age. Far from the norm. Also needs a heck of a lot of resources.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/28/2020 11:45:00 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/18/2021 11:57:57 PM

zgrssd

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Revive Thread, for I got a new idea!

A recent idea for a "low tech version of the Autonomous weapons" had me thinking:
What if we applied the Manpower Saving trick that is applied to Trucks and Buggies, to a purely defensive units?
Could we make a low tech version of the Autonomous weapons?

The saved manpower can represent Militia Style civilians or police forces being part of the defense forces, booby traps, mines, spring-guns and fortifications acting as "force multipliers", etc.
Someone recently claimed in a Stream that Automated MG and Turrets have a sort of "minimum entrenchment" of 250. Even if the terrain would normally not support any entrenchment above 50, those units reach 250 after just having moved. If it is true, those lower tech alternatives could work similar in this regard. Wich does reduce how much combat power they need to hold significantly.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 19

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 10:04:04 AM

BlueTemplar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EuchreJack

Honestly, I was wondering why we couldn't just build a fence to keep out the animals for a while now.

It might be worth considering the "Virtual Wall" discussions of how the United States intended to put up a wall on its southern border that it shares with Mexico.

Hm, maybe radar would be an asset. Right now we just have recon and spies. If I could see that free folk were massing along a particular border area, I could use a poll of response forces instead of the 2-hex apart line of troops I'm currently forced to use. As an aside, in the current game its possible to create significantly more units than normal by splitting up existing units into battlegroups. I know its possible to double the units, probably even triple them, although at some point the remaining forces are too weak to really hold anything.

Because those aren't your average animals ?

Spies, as already noted, are extremely effective against Non-Aligned and some of the minors that lack anti-spy capabilities.
(Don't ask me how a spy manages to "blend in" among Arachnids, does she just put on a spider Halloween costume ?

)

As for "the remaining forces being too weak to really hold anything", tell that to the poor AI ! :

Now granted, at some point I *did* have to call those 9 tanks -
(now pretty obsolete, but still kicking ass!)
- to slap down the AI in the places where it was massing troops, and where he managed to start to push back my line...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/26/2021 10:11:11 AM >

(in reply to EuchreJack)

Post #: 20

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 10:08:50 AM

BlueTemplar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

Yeah I agree. Some ability to put down fortifications seems reasonable.

As for the detail of how to target hex borders as opposed to hexes: Technically roads are a border future. It might feel a bit odd to click into the next hex for fortifications but barring dedicated UI development we at least know it's possible.

EDIT: Good examples btw.

That would be cumbersome though, since you want them to be perpendicular to that direction.

I guess that the fortifications, when drawn, could be automatically facing your border ?

Also we *do* have (now?) another way (if needed) to customize further hex borders like this : the traffic signal UI !

(in reply to MatthewVilter)

Post #: 21

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 4:54:46 PM

Arcalane

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Personally I like the idea of radar stations that someone proposed up-thread. Hex-building that grants recon on surrounding tiles based on level, requiring machines for the first couple of levels and then hitech parts for the remainder.

Something like-
Radar lv1; 2t radius, 50 recon, tools
Radar lv2; 2t radius, 100 recon, tools
Radar lv3; 3t radius, 125 recon, electronics
Radar lv4; 4t radius, 150 recon, electronics
etc., up to a max of maybe 6t/200 recon, with no stacking of the recon from multiple stations in close proximity, so you still need scout units if you want proper details beyond vague sensor contacts.

Could also tie in to AA units to improve their performance if AA/planes are enabled, but that might just be unnecessary or too fiddly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
Spies, as already noted, are extremely effective against Non-Aligned and some of the minors that lack anti-spy capabilities.
(Don't ask me how a spy manages to "blend in" among Arachnids, does she just put on a spider Halloween costume ? )

I think it's best to think of scouts in minor/indigenous territory as scout/ranger types. Rather than blending in amongst human populations, they're living off the land, using various spotting equipment and portable comms gear to radio back updates on tribe/herd movements.

Most indigenous critters probably won't care as long as the scout doesn't get too close, and for all other circumstances I imagine there's all sorts of neat tricks like pheromone/scent masking and such. Bugs that only hunt by scent? Make yourself smell like one of them!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
As for "the remaining forces being too weak to really hold anything", tell that to the poor AI ! :

Now granted, at some point I *did* have to call those 9 tanks -
(now pretty obsolete, but still kicking ass!)
- to slap down the AI in the places where it was massing troops, and where he managed to start to push back my line...

I've noticed the AI can be a bit dumb about engagement and stance use at times, so that might have contributed to the effectiveness of your otherwise obsolete tanks. As it turns out, All Out Attack isn't a very good stance if you're not, you know, actively attacking.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 22

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 5:22:25 PM

BlueTemplar

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Yeah, still doesn't explain why enemy 100mm Polymer *Tanks* (supposedly unaffected by the "All Out Attack" and "No Retreat" postures that this AI loves so much ?) have so much trouble against my 60mm HVGs... I'd have to look more carefully at the modifiers !

Anyway, that wasn't about my tanks, but about the 3 MG per tile infantry holding that line for so long ! On a plains !! (I *think* that "All Out Attack" was being used against me ?)

----

quote:

Personally I like the idea of radar stations that someone proposed up-thread. Hex-building that grants recon on surrounding tiles based on level, requiring machines for the first couple of levels and then hitech parts for the remainder.

Something like-
Radar lv1; 2t radius, 50 recon, tools
Radar lv2; 2t radius, 100 recon, tools
Radar lv3; 3t radius, 125 recon, electronics
Radar lv4; 4t radius, 150 recon, electronics
etc., up to a max of maybe 6t/200 recon, with no stacking of the recon from multiple stations in close proximity, so you still need scout units if you want proper details beyond vague sensor contacts.

Could also tie in to AA units to improve their performance if AA/planes are enabled, but that might just be unnecessary or too fiddly.

Ah, yeah, that would be nice to keep check on the borders with majors and minors that you're not at war with !

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/26/2021 5:26:39 PM >

(in reply to Arcalane)

Post #: 23

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 6:31:40 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Yeah, still doesn't explain why enemy 100mm Polymer *Tanks* (supposedly unaffected by the "All Out Attack" and "No Retreat" postures that this AI loves so much ?) have so much trouble against my 60mm HVGs... I'd have to look more carefully at the modifiers !

60mm / 100mm is only a -40% attack value penalty, IIRC.

The Howitzer has -50% on all Hard Combat values.
The High Velocity gun has -75% on all Soft Combat values
Meaning the HVG Tank has ~double the Hard combat values of a Howitzer tank

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 3/26/2021 6:32:55 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/26/2021 6:59:36 PM

BlueTemplar

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As you can (barely, but still) see, their tanks have mostly light laser guns by now.

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Post #: 25

RE: Manned Fortifications - 3/28/2021 10:11:00 PM

Sieppo

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Fortifications absolutely needs to be implemented. It is one of the major things still missing from the game. Should be expensive in industrial points and even take some manpower and take a lot of time. One of the most enjoyable thing in the game is surviving a overwhelming assault by using terrain etc and building fortifications is a part of it. It is also an enjoyable part of strategic planning. Troops just entrenching themselves is not the solution.

_____________________________

> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 26

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Suggestions and Feedback >> Manned Fortifications

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Slitherine

Manned Fortifications