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Logistics - 6/30/2020 1:36:33 AM

goodwoodrw

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There is lots of things to like about this game, but the logistic model rules supreme. Not like many other games on the market which treat logistics shabbily, for example when a vehicle or a unit requiring fuel runs out, in most other games the unit can operate at half strength or with some penalty. In this game if a recon or an armoured unit runs out of fuel it stops. A number of times I have had to build a road to a unit to resup it. In this this game just gotta watch your supply lines, logistics rule.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 1:53:36 AM

Twotribes

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Actually I would say there is a huge problem when the SOURCE of supply with THOUSANDS in fuel and food and ammo can read as unsupplied and Brigades 1 and 2 hexes from that SOURCE are also listed as out of supply.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:11:28 AM

goodwoodrw

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Not noticed that

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:19:15 AM

Twotribes

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I told you it has happened to me I processed the next turn after moving the brigades to the capitol and to a truck stop now they are blue rather then black. The shq now shows green again. and did not lose any supply from the old turn to the new. Just didn't gain any.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:23:58 AM

Malevolence

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Logistics -- loved or hated, but never ignored.

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Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:34:16 AM

LordAldrich

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Based on their other thread on the topic, I think @Twotribes is describing a situation where they have plenty of resources in the stockpile, but don't have enough LP to pull from the stockpile into the SHQ hex. This this is confusing for players because it seems like units should be able to pull directly from the SHQ stockpile using their organic supply assets (as they do with roads), but they can not. Only the SHQ can pull from the stockpile into the SHQ's hex, and that requires LP.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:39:50 AM

Twotribes

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Ohh really? Why would the SHQ read as out of supply? Why on the next turn with out building anymore infrastructure would there be enough supply and the SHQ read green again? What does LP have to do with the SHQ supply, IT holds all the surplus.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:47:20 AM

LordAldrich

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The SHQ supply indicator is the indicator for the sub-units IN the SHQ, the ones that aren't assigned to any other unit. The SHQ unit does NOT hold the supplies, those exist in an abstract stockpile. The SHQ uses LP to pull out of the stockpile and deliver to the hexes on the map, starting from the hex that SHQ is located in.

Let's not have this discussion in two threads? Anyone who wants to talk about this specific issue can do so in the thread we have for it https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4845151

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:49:32 AM

jwarrenw13

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I think the log system is brilliant. It feels right. Having said that, I'm sure there are things that need to be fixed or improved. And I don't understand why sometimes I don't have a supply line when there seems to be no obvious reason why I don't. I note several changes to the log system and several related changes in the 1.04 change list

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 11:59:42 AM

zgrssd

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"I defeated my enemies with hunger." - Atributed to Ceasar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Actually I would say there is a huge problem when the SOURCE of supply with THOUSANDS in fuel and food and ammo can read as unsupplied and Brigades 1 and 2 hexes from that SOURCE are also listed as out of supply.

Have yon considered that those brigades being out of supply, is what caused the SHQ to change color?
That the SHQ Supply status is a indicator of the worst supplied unit under it's command?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I told you it has happened to me I processed the next turn after moving the brigades to the capitol and to a truck stop now they are blue rather then black. The shq now shows green again. and did not lose any supply from the old turn to the new. Just didn't gain any.

Unless those are AI units, you always loose food.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

And I don't understand why sometimes I don't have a supply line when there seems to be no obvious reason why I don't.

A old debugging trick I use is:
I do not ask why something is not working.
I try to proof why it should be working. Usually I find the error along the way.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 2:26:24 PM

76mm

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I don't know what logistics problems TwoTribes is having, but I have to say that I find the turn-to-turn variation in logistics, and the fact that OHQs play no role in them, rather unrealistic.

It sure seems like, for instance, that before launching an offensive an OHQ would build up enough local supplies to sustain it for a few turns. Instead, you have to hope that your empire-wide logisitics networks is crippled for god-knows what reason in the middle of an offensive...

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 3:13:07 PM

GodwinW

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All units themselves have some reserves, and even without any food they don't all die off immediately. It's abstracted and it works well imo. It's part of the game to mind your supply lines and that's cool.

In that vain, thinking about air getting added at some point: I hope air support doesn't trivialize logistics issues while in reality with air support being encircled shouldn't necessarily be an issue (West-Berlin).

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 6:18:29 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
In that vain, thinking about air getting added at some point: I hope air support doesn't trivialize logistics issues while in reality with air support being encircled shouldn't necessarily be an issue (West-Berlin).

?? I don't think there has been a military campaign in history in which an encircled army was supplied adequately by air, so it should still be "an issue," although they should be better supplied than is now the case.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 7:18:51 PM

GodwinW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
In that vain, thinking about air getting added at some point: I hope air support doesn't trivialize logistics issues while in reality with air support being encircled shouldn't necessarily be an issue (West-Berlin).

?? I don't think there has been a military campaign in history in which an encircled army was supplied adequately by air, so it should still be "an issue," although they should be better supplied than is now the case.

West-Berlin.

I'm talking about logistics in an age of airplanes in general. Not about armies in a field specifically (and even then: airdrops). You can also be encircled with a city being disconnected from your other cities by ground.

There's a LOT of transport of goods taking place per airplane (normally, corona hardship aside).

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 7:35:32 PM

Falke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

West-Berlin.

I'm talking about logistics in an age of airplanes in general. Not about armies in a field specifically (and even then: airdrops). You can also be encircled with a city being disconnected from your other cities by ground.

There's a LOT of transport of goods taking place per airplane (normally, corona hardship aside).

That is not a good example, because firstly there was no opposition and there was a lot of spare air capacity available to be diverted to the supply effort. Active AA alone would have crippled that supply

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 7:40:27 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke
That is not a good example, because firstly there was no opposition and there was a lot of spare air capacity available to be diverted to the supply effort. Active AA alone would have crippled that supply

Exactly, the Berlin airlift was not a military campaign. At the height of the airlift, there was an aircraft touching down every 30 seconds. Hardly possible if there are people shooting at you.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 9:07:20 PM

GodwinW

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I do not care about military campaigns like I said. I already wrote that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
I'm talking about logistics in an age of airplanes in general.

Suppose you have aircraft. People might expect air-based variant of trucks. Makes sense right? So if air logistics get added, suppose you have 2 airfields and some random minor you're not at war with even took the land between your two cities blocking the road: you'd have airplanes to ferry stuff back-and-forth.

I'm just talking purely about the loss of the importance of supply lines and how air transport will affect logistics.

And before you make me repeat the next bit, lol :D, I am speaking about this as a hope that won't happen. A hope. Not saying it's a necessary outcome of air units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
In that vain, thinking about air getting added at some point: I hope air support doesn't trivialize logistics issues while in reality with air support being encircled shouldn't necessarily be an issue (West-Berlin).

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 9:40:35 PM

rwbrown

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I think the logistics management part of the game would become substantially less cumbersome with �air trucks�. I am not convinced it will be added anytime soon due to the enormous processing overhead. The biggest planes would support truly massive amounts of freight, with nearly unlimited distance, across borders and would need to calculate AA.

If you limited them to your territory only, it wouldn�t really matter overmuch except for some edge cases like crossing mountains or water.

Even if planes were somehow limited, how could you make that argument in the face of things down tech tree like walkers and monitors?

Ultimately, any addition of planes will require either some significant optimizations or a reimagining of the existing logistics system so it is not as processing heavy.

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RE: Logistics - 6/30/2020 9:51:16 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
In that vain, thinking about air getting added at some point: I hope air support doesn't trivialize logistics issues while in reality with air support being encircled shouldn't necessarily be an issue (West-Berlin).

?? I don't think there has been a military campaign in history in which an encircled army was supplied adequately by air, so it should still be "an issue," although they should be better supplied than is now the case.

Unlike Stalingrad, it actually did work. Just on a totally different scale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demyansk_Pocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholm_Pocket

People only remember the one huge failure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbridge_(logistics)

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/30/2020 9:52:47 PM >

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RE: Logistics - 7/1/2020 1:18:35 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
People only remember the one huge failure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbridge_(logistics)

Actually, both of those are good examples of units receiving enough by air to SURVIVE, but not receive full supply, ie, logistics was still "an issue".

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RE: Logistics - 7/1/2020 3:15:36 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
People only remember the one huge failure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbridge_(logistics)

Actually, both of those are good examples of units receiving enough by air to SURVIVE, but not receive full supply, ie, logistics was still "an issue".

I do not quite get what you are trying to say?
In all cases except Stalingrad, supplies were enough to continue combat operations (if applicable).
It is expensive in planes, fuel, manpower, operational losses - even without enemy action. So you still prefer trucks and rail. But it at least is a option, if the enemy for some reason leaves air superiority to you.

All losses were propably due to being a encirceled army under permanent attack.

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