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RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay?

 
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RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 1:19:44 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

By the way, I think there's a good reason for why the logistics system is implemented in this counter-intuitive way. It would be much more difficult to implement logistics in the way I feel is intuitive (I have 400 trucks in my empire to send out and when some of them are used in hex 0, 1, they no longer become available from hex 1, 1 and beyond). The path finding of units to account for truck pick-up locations as trucks get pulled off in such a way is much more complicated than the simpler system used where each hex just "has trucks" independent of the adjacent hexes. Hope that makes sense.


OK. That makes sense. Thanks!

None of the analogies make sense. Sorry. Maybe that's just me, but I'm not going to worry about it. If it needs to be this way so that the game doesn't bog down, fine. It's a game, after all.

I need to ignore my confusion about how this is done - and how it's shown in that bottlenecks overlay - and just accept it. Apparently, if the bottleneck shows black, I need more truck points there. Period.

It doesn't make any difference whether the path is green later on. I mean, it doesn't matter to the fact that I need more truck points (or more railroad points, presumably) where the path is black.

So, if I just concentrate on fixing the problem there, that's all I really need, right? If I build another truck station where I'm having that problem - or upgrade one that's already there - then eventually I'll have enough logistic points at that spot to solve the bottleneck problem.

OK. I think this will work for me. It doesn't really matter if this part of the game seems weird to me, especially since I think I've got a handle on the logistics other than this particular bottleneck problem. I know how to solve the problem - or I think I do, at least - and that's all that really matters.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I think this will help. I won't hurt my brain trying to puzzle it out. I'll just fix the problem.


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Post #: 31
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 3:39:48 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		I'm operating under the same assumptions you are, WCG.
Some aspects of the Bottlenecks display still puzzle me, but that way of thinking about it still allows to troubleshoot and fix the issue, and then go on with one's game.

One thing I had to realize and still seems a little funny to me is that Assets only need a potential of logistics points to operate fully, and that moving resources from rural Assets to the zone's inventory, and vice versa, does not consume logistics points. Only Items moving to and from between the zone inventories and a SHQ, or from a SHQ to units deplete the logistics points allotment. At least if I understood correctly.

The pipe analogy that has been getting some use recently helped me quite a bit I must say.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/18/2020 3:41:58 PM >

(in reply to WCG)
Post #: 32
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 4:19:18 PM   
Mathieas

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/23/2016
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Think of trucks like people in a bucket brigade. Each person(truck) cannot move but instead can only transfer supplies. Each truck depot is able to generate a line of bucket brigade a 1000 wide and as long(hexs) as the AP is able to hold out(then the bucket width diminishes as the AP is used). Now this analogy isn't perfect because in reality you would use some of your people(trucks) to widen the brigade when needed (instead of using them to extend it's range) but, if you prioritize in your mind a fixed 1000 person width bucket brigade it works.

So in the example here:
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

You mean City A->City B->City C?
The 1000 Truck Points start at City A.
Go through City B,
End at City C.

If you try to send 1000 to B and 1000 to C:
- 1000 Points are used up by A->B
- 0 Points available for A->C
No delivery to C. Bottleneck will mark this part as black.

Solution:
Add another 1000 points going A->B or B->A at least. That way both could receive their 1000 units.


This above I believe is 90% correct but missing one key point - where the bottleneck is first forming. You need 2000 buckets worth of materials you need to send from A to B and 1000 to continue to send through to C. So if we use the bucket brigade analogy then you have 2000 buckets needed to transfer to B, 1000 stays but you need an additional 1000 to send on to C. Now if we assume B has priority over C then you will see a bottle neck at A to B as this is where the first transfer of 2000 is requested. B to C is however NOT saturated as B to C bucket brigade is still open with 1000 buckets waiting for the materials that never made it from A. Please note, that even if you had 2000 points of buckets to transfer(At A and B) you would still see a bottleneck, because this while transferring 100% of what you need is still using 100% of the capacity which would show black (even though you have satisfied all of your needs!!).

This is just my take on what i have seen and read. I certainly could be mistaken.

< Message edited by Mathieas -- 6/18/2020 4:22:08 PM >

(in reply to btonasse)
Post #: 33
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 4:22:58 PM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Ohkay, I have sorta kinda fixed some of my problems but I have a big issue with my inability to send replacements to my no longer starving infantry brigade that is poised to take the enemy city in the north.

My problem seems to be a huge bottleneck between my two other cities. My question is how do I (best) fix this problem?

What seems to be the best solution is to increase the truck and rail in Grenancon to II and build a truck I near where I foolishly built a Supply I on the northern road. But I could increase Celtris to Rail II and build a truck stop in the middle of the bottleneck. It just seems to me the Grenancon is going to be the linch pin of my supply system not my capital (which is not central). There is a sealed road between the cities and that continues for a good part of the way to the city in the north I am trying to take.


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Post #: 34
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 4:53:13 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PMCN

Ohkay, I have sorta kinda fixed some of my problems but I have a big issue with my inability to send replacements to my no longer starving infantry brigade that is poised to take the enemy city in the north.

My problem seems to be a huge bottleneck between my two other cities. My question is how do I (best) fix this problem?

What seems to be the best solution is to increase the truck and rail in Grenancon to II and build a truck I near where I foolishly built a Supply I on the northern road. But I could increase Celtris to Rail II and build a truck stop in the middle of the bottleneck. It just seems to me the Grenancon is going to be the linch pin of my supply system not my capital (which is not central). There is a sealed road between the cities and that continues for a good part of the way to the city in the north I am trying to take.




I am guessing you got all the Logistics
- going to Bismark
- the Troops near Bismark
- troops near the bottleneck
Going through said bottleneck

You mentioned some rails. But not only should that rail go to Bismark (wich is actually far a way and actually needs a lot of stuff), you have shown us no indication they work.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/18/2020 4:54:44 PM >

(in reply to PMCN)
Post #: 35
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 5:11:59 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Note taht there may be a bug with the Railhead:
It preventing anything but the lower 10% of hte Rail Points from going on. I did not came around to testing that part, but only connecting it via a T-Crossing should fix it.

But you only need like 1 look at the numbers to notice a missing 90% Rail points:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834982

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/18/2020 5:13:37 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/18/2020 6:07:09 PM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Sorry the rail goes between the two cities (Celtris and Grenacon) in the south and then north only as far as the rail head. What goes towards the troops near Bismark is a sealed road from the rail head (baring a mountain pass) that extends to the end of the yellow section all the way from the SHQ in celtris. There is a truck station I in the same hex as the railhead to be clear.

I'm trying to get replacements to the troops near bismark as they starved for some turns...why I'm not 100% sure as they were in supply then they weren't but regardless what I figure is stopping the transport of replacements is that black bottleneck between them and the SHQ in Celtris. I am not sure if putting a truck station I somewhere in that bottleneck would help or if it is better to concentrate on getting the Rail and Truck in Grenacon up to level II. I will put in a truck station along the northern road. I also have troops I will move up north to reinforce the existing ones while I am dealing with logistical issue in the south.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 37
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 6/19/2020 6:43:52 PM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
Maybe to make it more clear I should talk about the whole system and differentiate between LIS and trucks as well.

In this case, Logistics is the maximum water that can be in that part of the pipe (let's call it water capacity now then), the Trucks are the waterflow, what you need is an amount of flow (NOT a one-time amount of water, you need a certain flow!)

Let's try this:

3 hexes distance: A -> B -> C
1000 LIS preview on all 3 hexes.
Let's say there's a unit on hex B which needs 2000 points of transported goods.

So in our metaphor: we have a pipe through which flows water. The pipe is 3 hexes long. The pipe can have a maximum flow of 1000 at all 3 parts of it.

Display Toggle: Bottlenecks

Green -> Black -> Green
Because 100% of the waterflow is being used at hex B (by the unit). It wanted 200%, but 100% is all it got (because higher than 100% doesn't exist).

For me this is intuitive.


Yes, this is a better way to explain it. I still think you should drop the "water in pipes" thing entirely though because the system really isn't like water flowing through pipes. The key issue for me being the word "flow". In the logistics system it's more like buckets of water evenly spaced along a path... and now we'll start debating our metaphors instead of explaining the actual mechanics of the system which I think is what we ought to do.

I appreciate the effort you put into clarifying though. We agree on how it works. Just not about how to analogize it, which again I don't think we should do (on page 2 of this thread).

Let's talk about hexes, points values, and how they're used. After that the reader can analogize it in their own head however they see fit.

Edit: I dunno, if the analogies help some people, great. YMMV

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/19/2020 6:47:03 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 38
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/1/2020 1:25:56 PM   
WCG

 

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Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I have much the same question as in the original post. In particular: what does it mean when there are two percentages in the same hex, one of which is parentheses and one not?



Did anyone figure this out? I still don't know what that number in parenthesis means.

In my current game, the number always seems to be 100%. I don't think I've ever seen a different number there. And it only shows up when there are military units fairly close by (so it apparently does have something to do with that).

But what does it mean, exactly?

PS. Does the bottleneck display include rail LP, and not just that from trucks? I've got a city very close to my capital city, and upgrading the rail stations in both of them hasn't seemed to make any difference to the bottleneck display. It was yellow before the rail stations were upgraded, and it's still yellow now, some turns afterwards.

Yeah, earlier I said that I'd just accept that I simply needed more LP, but no matter how much I get - rail LP, especially - it doesn't seem to make much difference. Then again, I'm probably hauling more stuff all the time, too. But that much?



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RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/1/2020 5:29:56 PM   
LordAldrich

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 9/30/2014
Status: offline 		The number in parenthesis is from a nearby unit using it's built in logistics to pull supplies from the road. It the same number as you see on the dotted unit supply lines, it's just in parenthesis so you can tell it apart from the road's numbers when they're on the same hex. I *think* it's the percentage of requested supplies which were delivered, but don't quote me on it. (The road % is straightforward currentLP/startingLP)

(in reply to WCG)
Post #: 40
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/1/2020 10:12:50 PM   
CelestialSlayer

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/24/2020
Status: offline 		I really recommend that you check out the videos by DasTactic they explain many things well that you need to know and the logistics video was enlightning for me - i did not understand the bottleneck until after i watched the video.

(in reply to btonasse)
Post #: 41
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/2/2020 12:53:07 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich

I *think* it's the percentage of requested supplies which were delivered, but don't quote me on it. (The road % is straightforward currentLP/startingLP)



Thanks, but I seem to show 100% everywhere, even when I've got tons of units which aren't getting fully supplied. But... maybe that number doesn't show up at all unless it's 100%? I'll have to look closer.

And thanks, CelestialSlayer, but I've watched all of the videos by DasTactic. They were very useful. But if he explained what this number is, I must have missed that. Did he?




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RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/2/2020 2:20:20 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich

I *think* it's the percentage of requested supplies which were delivered, but don't quote me on it. (The road % is straightforward currentLP/startingLP)



Thanks, but I seem to show 100% everywhere, even when I've got tons of units which aren't getting fully supplied. But... maybe that number doesn't show up at all unless it's 100%? I'll have to look closer.


It is a bottleneck display.
If the bottleneck is way back at the SHQ, of coruse the figures up there say "100%". After all, it is not the bottleneck

(in reply to WCG)
Post #: 43
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/2/2020 4:10:55 PM   
lloydster4

 

Posts: 164
Joined: 6/19/2020
Status: offline 		You are imagining that logistics capacity flows out from its source. This is not true. Logistics capacity is generated at the beginning of the turn in each hex. Capacity used in one hex does not affect another. They are all independent.

Put simply, capacity is The total amount of supplies that can pass through this hex per turn.

Let's say you have 3 hexes in a straight line, A-B-C. A is a truck station generating 1000 capacity. B is a unit requesting 1200 supplies from A. This exceeds capacity. A sends 1000. B receives 1000. A and B have used all of their logistics capacity. But C still has 1000. You would see a bottleneck at A and B, and 1000 current points at C.

Hope that helps. :)

(in reply to btonasse)
Post #: 44
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/2/2020 4:30:33 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

If the bottleneck is way back at the SHQ, of coruse the figures up there say "100%".



I don't ever see that number in parentheses near the SHQ. I only ever see it further away, closer to where my units are. And again, I don't think I've ever seen a number that wasn't 100% - even when my units aren't getting their full supply.

But I could be mistaken about that. I don't see any other numbers now, but those numbers (again, the ones in the parentheses) don't show up everywhere.

Well, it's not a big deal. But if that's supposed to be showing me something useful, it isn't.




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RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/4/2020 9:09:13 AM   
Poliorcetes

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		The issue is that seeing a "black" area doesn't actually tell you what the problem is
It could be you are too far away, so a supply dump would help. It could be you have too many units drawing off that spot (so spread out or upgrade logistics).
This is still very hard to sort out, partly because all you get are a bunch of numbers that have to be cross referenced. I would love a simple summary ("not enough supply" , "not enough delivery")

(in reply to btonasse)
Post #: 46
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/4/2020 11:06:28 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes

The issue is that seeing a "black" area doesn't actually tell you what the problem is


The black tells you exactly wich hex is the bottleneck.
That is the hex that needs more Logistics.

Doing the right stuff to make that happen? That is your job.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/4/2020 11:07:06 AM >

(in reply to Poliorcetes)
Post #: 47
RE: How do you read the bottlenecks overlay? - 7/4/2020 12:14:43 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes

The issue is that seeing a "black" area doesn't actually tell you what the problem is



I agree. I suppose it tells us what the problem is - not enough logistics - but it doesn't tell us why. And in my first game, I'd do everything I could to increase the LP in an area without having much of an impact. Again, I would struggle to understand why.

Of course, in that game, by the time I recognized a problem, my map was very complicated. I've started a new game with version 1.04, and I'm going to try to keep an eye on this from the start.

Ironically, logistics buildings are about the only things I can build in this game, since I don't have any way to get more energy. Heh, heh. So I might end up with more than enough logistics, just because I can't build what I want to build. Funny, huh?

I love how there's always something new to worry about in this game!




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