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Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs

 
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Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/2/2020 9:50:26 PM   
dhucul2011

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline 		SCIII War in Europe is the best strategic WW2 computer simulation on the market and the ability to mod is unmatched. Nothing against World at War but the scale throws me off.

However, its time that three important features were somehow included. (There are others that would be great but are not as important)

Manpower: The Axis should be severely hampered later into the war by manpower limits. Building and reinforcing units later in the war should cost more and produce lower and lower quality units. CEAW does a good job of doing this.

Oil: Similar to manpower I should not be able to move all of my Axis fleets and eight tank units all over the map later in the war without restrictions. Again CEAW does a good job representing this as well. Synthetic Oil investment could be a nice DE to counter this. Crispy's MOD has done a good job in trying to represent this in a fashion within limitations of the scripts.

With that said, however, CEAW has a horrible AI and does not stand up to SC's other features and the level of designer support.

Atomic Bombs: Germany still on the rampage in late 1945 and beyond? I love playing past the vanilla end date but, realistically, Hamburg or Munich or Berlin would have been dust by end of 1945. And how fun would it be to have Germany skimp on its actual war effort to get a bomb? The Kamikaze unit could be re-vamped with a nice mushroom cloud graphic and then a permanent reduction on the supply source that it attacked.

I'm hoping that we can get these type of features in a comprehensive update instead of waiting for SC4. Rainy day thoughts........

Post #: 1
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/2/2020 10:58:39 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Play HoI, it`s all in there.

(in reply to dhucul2011)
Post #: 2
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 11:50:01 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Play HoI, it`s all in there.



"War Plan" has MP & Oil (not sure on nukes) so it is somewhere between SC & HOI. I've only played WP a few hours so can't give a definitive opinion, seems good so far. Way to much micro managing in HOI for me.

The "War Plan" dev worked on SC I believe and is very pro active with players questions/recommendations.

IMO devs have to be very careful with oil, it can dominate and ruin games. Commanders is an example. I have my concerns about MP on oil.

SC represents oil/manpower with build limits. In prior posts I recommended increasing/decreasing build limits some (not a lot) when strategic oil centers are captured/lost.




(in reply to Sugar)
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RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 3:00:58 PM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


IMO devs have to be very careful with oil, it can dominate and ruin games. Commanders is an example. I have my concerns about MP on oil.



World in Flames has optional oil rules that really put a crimp on Axis operations. Italy and Japan particularly find themselves in a world of hurt with their large navies. Germany not so much, but it still has a constraining effect even on production. It does demonstrate why Germany and Japan put such a big emphasis on securing oil resources as soon as possible.

Of course, if they ever get around to developing an AI for that game I might play it more. Solitaire isn't a whole lot of fun.



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RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 3:58:09 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		First point: the assumption is wrong, SC3 is not a historical simulation. It is meant to be played as PbEM and has therefore to be balanced, which is already difficult, because the starting position is somewhat historical. It`s also a very differenciated game with far more depth than usually expected or even recognized; adding more lvls of differenciation doesn`t help balancing.

HoI is of course chosen intentionally, because it idealtypically showes how to ruin a game, if new lvls of complexity don`t work as intended (or perhaps do, to be able to sell the frustrated costumer updates and bugfixes as "features").

quote:

It does demonstrate why Germany and Japan put such a big emphasis on securing oil resources as soon as possible.


That`s not quite true, at least not in case of Germany. The only reason it came into play was the failure to reach the primary goals of their strategy, occupying Moscow or the destruction of the Red Army, otherwise their priorities would have been the Caucasus and the Middle East from the start. Germany had no significant oil shortages until Ploesti fell into russian hands. This also applies to manpower shortages, Germany was able to replace their workforce by slaves nearly until the last minute.

If those details had limited outcomes anyway, why should they be implemented? Would an A-Bomb have ended the war, even if Hitler would have been killed? Who knows...








(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 5
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 4:04:25 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		World in Flames always looked great.

but $90 for a solitaire game, come on

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 6
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 4:16:38 PM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

World in Flames always looked great.

but $90 for a solitaire game, come on


Exactly.

And due to the fact that it's modeled after the original 1980s board game, it really retains the board game feel, with dice rolls, fixed counter values and phases...phases...phases. Probably not everyone's cup of tea after decades of solely computer based wargames.

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Post #: 7
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 5:27:45 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		I loved those board games in the 70's & 80's.

Probably not into $90 for dice rolls today. Seems like they missed a great opportunity to upgrade the game.

(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 8
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 7:34:37 PM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I loved those board games in the 70's & 80's.

Probably not into $90 for dice rolls today. Seems like they missed a great opportunity to upgrade the game.


Well, at least in computerized format you don't have to worry about the bookkeeping, the arcane math, the latest rules addendum, the lost pieces, finding a tennis table to keep maps, charts and all on, etc.

Not to mention the insane counter stacks.



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RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 8:00:45 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		There are some nukes (or a workaround anyway) in the Community mod World War Three 1946. After a certain date if the US gets B-29 units to certain hexes it sets off simulated nukes and those hexes are toast. They are oil hexes by the way.

I've also upped the importance of oil a whole bunch with a good number of MMPs relying on oil. So if you want to spend resources on units, research, upgrades etc., you had better pay attention to oil.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 10
RE: Manpower, Oil and Atomic Bombs - 7/3/2020 9:31:35 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline 		I seem to recall reading that when Italy defected from the Axis in September 1943 it actually provided an ironic boost to Germany's overall economic situation as Italy ceased to be a drain on Germany's near-exhausted oil reserves. Italy, having virtually no domestic sources of oil had to lean pretty heavily on Germany's and Rumania's reserves to keep her industry and navy running. This was also about the same time that Germany's synthetic fuel industry, not yet targeted by Allied bombers, reached their production peak.

Unfortunately, for Germany it was a short lived reprieve as Allied air raids on the Rumanian oilfields and refineries were greatly facilitated by the use of those new bases in southern Italy.

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 11
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