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[1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct

 
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[1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/2/2020 12:32:35 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Manual says an attack from 4 sides should be a 100% modifier, not 40%.

See screenshot:

Post #: 1
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/2/2020 2:32:13 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		I note that using only a single formation no longer provides a separate bonus to concentric attack.

I have not been able to achieve the 200% concentric attack bonus.

Silent nerf?



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(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 2
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/2/2020 2:39:34 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		I am pretty sure that using units from opposing hexes (basically D&D Flanking positions), provides more Concentric attack bonus or stacking limit.

And if there is a 2nd OHQ involved (militia does count as being under the SHQ), the bonus is halved anyway.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 3
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/2/2020 2:53:38 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I note that using only a single formation no longer provides a separate bonus to concentric attack.

I have not been able to achieve the 200% concentric attack bonus.

Silent nerf?




Ouch! I hope unintended! I loved that flavorful detail!


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I am pretty sure that using units from opposing hexes (basically D&D Flanking positions), provides more Concentric attack bonus or stacking limit.


That's true (if the manual is correct) for attacking from 2 or 3 sides. 4 or more it doesn't matter anymore.
p293

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/2/2020 2:54:16 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 4
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 12:48:36 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Manual should have said 80-100%. There is two different ways to attack from 4 directions, 1 is more concentric than the other.

And then it gets divided by 2 because you are using Units from different HQs.

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Post #: 5
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 2:46:36 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Sorry Vic but can you or someone else elaborate?

You say 'HQ' but all these units are from either the SHQ or the 1 OHQ I have. So I'm not mixing 2 OHQ's. I am mixing an SHQ with the OHQ, but the SHQ also supports the OHQ anyway down the OOB.

And, Malevolence, it does indeed seem that it's nerfed: no longer a doubling bonus for using 1 OHQ but instead a penalty halving it if you mix.

In any case... it now becomes a question in the early game, when you're taking over your first city, whether it's better to use militia and independent regiments only to not get the penalty instead of using the OHQ. It will depend whether the OHQ rolls well I suppose.

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Post #: 6
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 3:43:17 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Sorry Vic but can you or someone else elaborate?

You say 'HQ' but all these units are from either the SHQ or the 1 OHQ I have. So I'm not mixing 2 OHQ's. I am mixing an SHQ with the OHQ, but the SHQ also supports the OHQ anyway down the OOB.


1. The SHQ acts as full OHQ for all independant and Militia Units, as long as they are close enough.
2. It says different HQ. O-HQ and S-HQ are different HQ's by type, not just by instance. Sorry for not properly copying the text there.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/3/2020 3:44:45 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 7
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 5:17:21 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Yes ok thanks so you're saying mixing non-OHQ units (you cannot have non-SHQ units (if you go up the chain)) with OHQ units is already giving the penalty. Then that's a pretty decent nerf tbh. Like I said for the first city conquest it may now be better to use militia (higher starting morale) and a few indie regiments and use the OHQ to explore. Hmm.

Btw.. acts as a full OHQ? For a OHQ both the SHQ and the OHQ roll.
If the SHQ would act as a full OHQ it would roll twice for the indies (1 as the regular SHQ and 1 as the acting OHQ).
Is that really happening when you're close enough?

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/3/2020 5:19:42 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 8
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 5:46:54 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Yes ok thanks so you're saying mixing non-OHQ units (you cannot have non-SHQ units (if you go up the chain)) with OHQ units is already giving the penalty. Then that's a pretty decent nerf tbh. Like I said for the first city conquest it may now be better to use militia (higher starting morale) and a few indie regiments and use the OHQ to explore. Hmm.

Btw.. acts as a full OHQ? For a OHQ both the SHQ and the OHQ roll.
If the SHQ would act as a full OHQ it would roll twice for the indies (1 as the regular SHQ and 1 as the acting OHQ).
Is that really happening when you're close enough?

"As long as your Militia Units stay in HQ Power Range they’ll be able to receive positive effects from Operational HQ Skill Rolls. (note that SHQ Skill Rolls always apply irrespective of range between Unit and HQ)"
4.2.1

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 9
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 6:01:21 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Fun, and that should be the same for indies then :)

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 10
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 7:45:14 PM   
Gozzon

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline 		Also note that it has been like this quite long so it's not really a sudden silent nerf. I think it is one of the features that people are now starting to pick up and realize.
All in all you should try carrying independent regiments in OHQs to fill in more sides to attack for full bonus

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 11
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 8:06:12 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		So the following was wrong then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I note that using only a single formation no longer provides a separate bonus to concentric attack.

I have not been able to achieve the 200% concentric attack bonus.

Silent nerf?


Maybe it was a misunderstanding. I read somewhere, like Malevolence did, that having a concentric attack with only groups of 1 OHQ would double the concentric bonus. That's still true really, but we thought the manual values were normal and there was an extra bonus for using 1 OHQ due to that post, but the values in the manual could be the 1 OHQ situation with the mixed attack being penalized by half.

In any case, is the following a bug then zgrssd?



Because the SHQ doesn't provide the bonus for the OHQ slot while being within 6 hexes.
I can post a bug thread if you think it's a bug. Since I'm not sure how it's supposed to work (there are still parts of the manual I haven't read, I think I'll read the OHQ section soonish :p).

(in reply to Gozzon)
Post #: 12
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 8:08:00 PM   
Gozzon

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline 		Pretty sure the SHQ should not appear in multiple slots. If you hover over the SHQ guy you will see all his rolls and which are in effect

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 13
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 9:02:52 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

So the following was wrong then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I note that using only a single formation no longer provides a separate bonus to concentric attack.

I have not been able to achieve the 200% concentric attack bonus.

Silent nerf?


Maybe it was a misunderstanding. I read somewhere, like Malevolence did, that having a concentric attack with only groups of 1 OHQ would double the concentric bonus. That's still true really, but we thought the manual values were normal and there was an extra bonus for using 1 OHQ due to that post, but the values in the manual could be the 1 OHQ situation with the mixed attack being penalized by half.

In any case, is the following a bug then zgrssd?



Because the SHQ doesn't provide the bonus for the OHQ slot while being within 6 hexes.
I can post a bug thread if you think it's a bug. Since I'm not sure how it's supposed to work (there are still parts of the manual I haven't read, I think I'll read the OHQ section soonish :p).

Did you check what hte HQ power on the units was?
Plus as Gozzon said, it might be that both effects were behind the single SHQ entry.

SHQ commanders do not tend to have good OHQ Skills. Generally no Operational Command Skill. With luck, they may have some tactic skills that apply. So 34% overall would not be unexpectedly low.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/3/2020 9:04:01 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 14
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 9:24:55 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Ok, I should have screenshotted the modifier but it was just 1 type of roll.

The high command rolls.

Here, took some time and set up a new game to show it:



So, bug?

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/3/2020 9:27:44 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 15
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 9:27:24 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Ok, I should have screenshotted the modifier but it was just 1 type of roll.

The high command rolls.

Here, took some time and set up a new game to show it:




So, bug?

If they had HQ power from teh SHQ? Should be a bug. Display at least.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 16
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 9:28:47 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		What do you mean'HQ power from the SHQ'? Yes they were within 6 hexes, is that what you mean?

Edit: went digging through the manual and you seem to be wrong, at least judging from this line:

quote:

SHQ Commander Rolls are limited to the High Command Skill Roll, but
these rolls can be made from any distance


So if that's true (p301), they'll never roll as OHQ.

I guess it's still a bug the rolls of the SHQ didn't show up in his skill log btw.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/3/2020 9:42:19 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 17
RE: [1.04b1] Concentric attack bonus not correct - 7/3/2020 10:28:30 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

What do you mean'HQ power from the SHQ'? Yes they were within 6 hexes, is that what you mean?

Edit: went digging through the manual and you seem to be wrong, at least judging from this line:

quote:

SHQ Commander Rolls are limited to the High Command Skill Roll, but
these rolls can be made from any distance


So if that's true (p301), they'll never roll as OHQ.

I guess it's still a bug the rolls of the SHQ didn't show up in his skill log btw.

HQ Power is a stat on the units. Between Entrenchment and Supplies. It is how we figured out that 6 Hex figure.
I do get 100% with Militia and Independant near the SHQ. But maybe there is something interfering back there?

Rule:
Well, I already quoted the conflicting rule:
quote:

As long as your Militia Units stay in HQ Power Range they’ll be able to receive positive effects from Operational HQ Skill Rolls. (note that SHQ Skill Rolls always apply irrespective of range between Unit and HQ)

4.2.1

Edit: I made a bug report for it.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/3/2020 10:37:42 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 18
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