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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!)

 
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/3/2020 2:39:30 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

I mentioned that here as a bug:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4847177
Currently pull logistics ignore traffic signs, EXCEPT for the "block all" traffic sign.


Not only. A normal person is going to look at the differences in preview points and scratch their head. Under different circumstances, preview points rise along route when they block off a split.

It's different when mixing prioritized pull points, however.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/3/2020 2:45:26 PM >

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Post #: 271
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/3/2020 3:16:54 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Well.... surprise, surprise!

Guess the "simple" change to a pull system, that was so freely advocated, is not so simple in the details.

As ever, extraordinary claims, demand extraordinary proof.

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 272
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/3/2020 3:41:08 PM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline 		LIS is indeed complicated business. That's why the Cult of LIS exists. Devote yourself fully to this great mystical power and true wisdom shall surly follow suit!

On another note. This new pull system seems to have a lot more potential compared with the old archaic push one. Looking forward to future improvements!

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 273
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/3/2020 4:32:32 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

Well.... surprise, surprise!

Guess the "simple" change to a pull system, that was so freely advocated, is not so simple in the details.

As ever, extraordinary claims, demand extraordinary proof.

Okay. Who actually said it will be "simple"?
Please with quotes. I hate arguing against peoples imagination.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 274
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 4:57:47 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Just posted v104-beta3.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Wanted to make two points concerning the Pull Points.

First the system has not been simplified, just an extra tool to manage it has been added to the toolbox. If you want you can play the game exactly the same as before the Pull Points were added by just not using this Pull Points "tool”.

Secondly I gave it a lot of thought and I concluded (for now) the Traffic Signs system and the Pull Points should be interconnected/mixable and NOT be presented as two separate systems. This will lead to less confusion and Players can always choose to use only one or only the other or choose to mix them. I just feel it is more coherent like this.

Best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 275
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 5:07:01 PM   
Destragon

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline 		Thanks for the update. The logistical points log already makes a lot more sense to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
Secondly I gave it a lot of thought and I concluded (for now) the Traffic Signs system and the Pull Points should be interconnected/mixable and NOT be presented as two separate systems. This will lead to less confusion and Players can always choose to use only one or only the other or choose to mix them. I just feel it is more coherent like this.

If I have a mine to the east, which requires 100 logistics points, and I want all the leftover logistics to travel to the road north, because I want them for strategic moving, what do I do?
There's no traffic sign that only prevents the leftover logistics from traveling east, is there?
I guess should I just be putting custom pull points on the tile that heads north?

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/3/2020 5:19:19 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 276
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 5:26:59 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Windows blocks access to the "ShadowEmpire.exe", as it was tagged as "downloaded from the internet". First time that happens with a beta for me.

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 277
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 5:35:17 PM   
Destragon

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline 		I think I just found a little thing that could be improved.
The pull system is intelligent enough to realise that assets don't use the logistics points that they require, which means, when you have 2 mines in a line, which both need 100 logistics points, it will send only 100 logistics points, because it knows that that's enough to satisfy both, which is great.

But I just noticed this situation with 3 mines and a fork in the road. Because there is a fork and two mines are on different paths, the pull system should actually be requesting 200 points here, but instead it only sends out 100.


(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 278
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 7:04:49 PM   
ussdefiant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 6/18/2009
Status: offline 		I think either beta2 or beta3 might've broken some sanity checks somewhere. This is a Siwa-class that had 70 million pop in the colonization phase.


(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 279
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 8:04:05 PM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline 		You mean 70 Billion?

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Post #: 280
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 8:35:49 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ussdefiant

I think either beta2 or beta3 might've broken some sanity checks somewhere. This is a Siwa-class that had 70 million pop in the colonization phase.



I had values on one planet going from:
20 Million
to
6684 Million (yes, 6.7 Billion!)
I took that later one for a spin. I actually saw several entries in the "Colonisation History" I enver saw before:
- becomming a major player in scientific research
- relay station for Liquid Energy producers
- becomming the Quadrant Capital!

(in reply to ussdefiant)
Post #: 281
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 8:50:35 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline 		Guys have the animals (alien lifeforms) been severely nerfed?

Or is this just coincidence and I have my first planet where 3 different lifeforms are trivial.

Most notable is that their attack value is now so much lower than their defense value. Never had them this easy, not by a long margin. (For example I have a bipedal dinosaur-looking 5m large monster having an attack of 6 for both soft and hard.)

What's your experience with life in 1.04b3?




@zgrssd: I've had those on less populous planets. I've even seen stuff out-competing the core worlds. But yesterday or the day before I also saw some entries I never saw before, really cool :)

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/3/2020 8:51:47 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 282
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 9:21:38 PM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline
quote:

"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS


I love this so much!

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(in reply to Vhalor)
Post #: 283
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/3/2020 9:33:18 PM   
springel


Posts: 363
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Groningen, NL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Windows blocks access to the "ShadowEmpire.exe", as it was tagged as "downloaded from the internet". First time that happens with a beta for me.


If you start the game once from the game menu (which has installer privileges) the main exe will be flagged OK.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 284
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/4/2020 8:59:31 AM   
Dampfnudel

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/27/2019
Status: offline 		Logistics look good on first view. I will need to observe it carefully next match. (as it is not savegame compatible)

(in reply to aperfecturkel)
Post #: 285
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/4/2020 11:22:00 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

Logistics look good on first view. I will need to observe it carefully next match. (as it is not savegame compatible)

There is no *. So the Logistics Changes should be fully savegame compatible.

Once Models, Buildings, Roads, Stratagems or Events are involved, the Savegame Compatibiliy becomes an issue. But not basic rule changes like these.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 286
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/4/2020 11:42:45 AM   
Che12

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		After having some patch issues I started a new game with v104-beta2 and it is so much more fun than before :) Thanks @Vic for this new pull-system!

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 287
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/4/2020 3:40:29 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

Well.... surprise, surprise!

Guess the "simple" change to a pull system, that was so freely advocated, is not so simple in the details.

As ever, extraordinary claims, demand extraordinary proof.

Okay. Who actually said it will be "simple"?
Please with quotes. I hate arguing against peoples imagination.



It's also difficult to argue when the rules of the English language are not mutually agreed!

In context, the air quotes around 'simple' mean exactly the opposite of a direct quote. They mean that the attitude of several posts were that a pull system could be implemented without difficulty... easy peasy!

Hope this clarifies this for you.

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Post #: 288
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/4/2020 4:38:24 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
Status: offline 		I appreciate the attempt to automate some of the tedious busywork out of logistics with the pull system. However, I don't think the change in the latest beta that makes traffic signs block a proportion of pulls works well. If I put a traffic sign on a dead-end road because I'm never going to strat-move through it so any excess logistics going there is just wasted, the traffic sign now deducts from any pulls as well and ensures that any actually needed logistics doesn't make it through either. That means that in order to concentrate the logistics points where they're useful, I still need to manually fiddle with the traffic sign for that road any time its needed logistics throughput changes. That's just pointless micromanagement, it would be much better if the traffic sign didn't chop up pulls.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 289
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/4/2020 7:57:17 PM   
Destragon

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
There is no *. So the Logistics Changes should be fully savegame compatible.

Once Models, Buildings, Roads, Stratagems or Events are involved, the Savegame Compatibiliy becomes an issue. But not basic rule changes like these.

It's written in the changelog
"-You need to start a new game with this beta2 to try them out (wanted to minimize risk to disrupt running games)"

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 290
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/4/2020 9:01:58 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Guys have the animals (alien lifeforms) been severely nerfed?

Or is this just coincidence and I have my first planet where 3 different lifeforms are trivial.

Most notable is that their attack value is now so much lower than their defense value. Never had them this easy, not by a long margin. (For example I have a bipedal dinosaur-looking 5m large monster having an attack of 6 for both soft and hard.)

What's your experience with life in 1.04b3?



Did anyone check by now?

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 291
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/4/2020 10:03:09 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Haven't run into any alien life forms yet.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 292
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/4/2020 11:01:57 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		The only thing I ran into where Arachnids, and their values have not changed to my knowledge.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 293
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/5/2020 2:56:44 PM   
Destragon

 

Posts: 475
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline 		Was able to test the new logistics some more and I'm liking it a lot so far. Another thing I really love about this change is that it actually lets you preview the amount of required logistics your individual fronts demand on the next turn. That was something I really wanted, too. You used to have to manually calculate it by going through your units or just guess it if you're lazy.

I'm still not really a fan of the branching penalty though. It incentivises you to place down a lot of "block all" stop signs to turn off secondary roads and sort of counter-acts the pull system because of that.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 294
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/5/2020 10:31:06 PM   
DasTactic

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm really liking where the Logistics System changes are going. I haven't tested it much yet but I don't like that the traffic system blocks the pull points.

On the traffic system, it would be great to have a few options...
[ ] Allow Max Pull Points
(which would allow blocks but let through 100% of the logistics needed through the Pull system)

Have two indicator lights above each button on the traffic blockages.
The left light is for roads and the right light is for rail.
Left-clicking the button would toggle the road only.
Right-clicking would toggle the rail only.
To activate both you would both left and right-click on a button. I think this would be good because I feel the majority of the time you don't want to be really blocking the rail system too much.

< Message edited by DasTactic -- 7/5/2020 10:57:10 PM >

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 295
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/6/2020 8:33:25 AM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline 		Having played more with the new system, I have to strongly agree with DasTactic here, nice videos btw.

I certainly like the overall direction, but also very much so dislike the traffic system blocking pull requests. I'd actually say, that's the main annoyance with the entire Logistic System for me right now.

An option, like DasTactic proposes, should easily fix that problem and would be a great addition.

_____________________________

"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS

(in reply to DasTactic)
Post #: 296
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta3 (last update 3rd july!) - 7/6/2020 10:12:28 AM   
Culthrasa

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 4/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DasTactic

I'm really liking where the Logistics System changes are going. I haven't tested it much yet but I don't like that the traffic system blocks the pull points.

On the traffic system, it would be great to have a few options...
[ ] Allow Max Pull Points
(which would allow blocks but let through 100% of the logistics needed through the Pull system)

Have two indicator lights above each button on the traffic blockages.
The left light is for roads and the right light is for rail.
Left-clicking the button would toggle the road only.
Right-clicking would toggle the rail only.
To activate both you would both left and right-click on a button. I think this would be good because I feel the majority of the time you don't want to be really blocking the rail system too much.


Yeh having the traffic lights for road/rail separately really needed (pitched it already multiple times to vic:)). NOw the only way is to make them go to separate hexes from the asset/city itself and again separate them for each junction...

(in reply to DasTactic)
Post #: 297
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 1:31:17 PM   
W8taminute


Posts: 42
Joined: 10/27/2019
From: Aboard the Praetor's Pride
Status: offline 		I don't want a pull system for my logistics otherwise I'll just play other boring games that have this system. The original out of the box logistics system in Shadow Empires is an enigma but once you get used to how it works it is so refreshing compared to other games.

I really hope that there is an option to keep this original logistics system in the game. I don't want a pull system. Don't spoil my fun for this game please. I'm sure I'm not alone.

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(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 298
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) - 7/6/2020 2:22:12 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: W8taminute

I don't want a pull system for my logistics otherwise I'll just play other boring games that have this system. The original out of the box logistics system in Shadow Empires is an enigma but once you get used to how it works it is so refreshing compared to other games.

I really hope that there is an option to keep this original logistics system in the game. I don't want a pull system. Don't spoil my fun for this game please. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Just turn it off for your Empire.

I still have no idea why you find "making a maze of traffic sign" a engaging mechanic, but do not expect a lot of people willing to play without it.

(in reply to W8taminute)
Post #: 299
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta4 (last update 6th july!) - 7/6/2020 4:20:46 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Added a number of improvements to the Logistics systems and fixed a list of minor glitches/bugs.

Posted v1.04-beta4!

_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 300
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