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Italian morale - 7/8/2020 8:32:46 AM   
sveint


Posts: 3556
Joined: 1/19/2001
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Status: offline 		Just utter cheese. Italy surrenders next turn.




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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:31:41 AM   
Flaviusx


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You gotta be ready for that come 42 and drop garrisons all over northern Italy.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:36:55 AM   
Hadros

 

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Status: offline 		Don't forget to mention I already occopied Sicily and took a bit of mainland Italy and you were reluctant to do anything about that.
That armor invaded from mainland Italy.

Also instead of moving more units in Italy to defend you sent more out to Russia.

< Message edited by Hadros -- 7/8/2020 9:39:36 AM >

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:37:15 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		I resigned, my second loss. Just not my playstyle. Italy even held Egypt at the time.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:38:00 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		You played the UK brilliantly Hadros.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:40:39 AM   
Hadros

 

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:46:21 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Dude, you were seriously on notice here, based on what Hadros said.

Whether or not you had Egypt is besides the point and doesn't even count for Italian morale. The allies were making a move on Italy and you didn't guard against it at all. You kept sending units to Russia?

With Sicily gone that was a huge tell.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:49:52 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		I disagree with his assessment. Italy was well garrisoned. There is no realistic scenario where you could take Torino without taking a harbour first.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:55:28 AM   
Hadros

 

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Status: offline 		Only the harbours were garrisoned. I even forgot to mentiond Sardinia was also under my control. So launching an invasion from there was also possible. There was no navy or air cover in the north either.

You did move units out after you thought you had me contained.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:57:05 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		I'm not saying you didn't play well. I'm saying it's utterly unrealistic and cheesy.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:58:45 AM   
Hadros

 

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Status: offline 		And about being realistic. There was not a single German unit in France and the west coast. Only split Yugoslavians armies.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 10:01:30 AM   
Hadros

 

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Status: offline 		So we both play unrealistic. Might be because it's a game.
You might just acknowledge you were outsmarted instead of saying it's cheesy.
Thats all.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 10:02:00 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		All you had to do was drop a single German infantry division or trash Italian infantry corps in Turin and this wouldn't have been possible. You should indeed have garrisons on every single Italian objective hex based on this situation. I would never have let this happen to me.

There comes a point in the game when the Axis has to start taking defensive measures seriously and particularly making a commitment to keeping Italy in the game -- and that will probably involve a fair number of German troops.

With Sicily gone and 1942 dropping Italian surrender requirements you should have been absolutely paranoid about Italy. This wasn't cheese and it could have been stopped with even a modicum of foresight.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 11:43:13 AM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
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Status: offline 		I have had a few games where the Italians stretch themselves incredibly thin by invading Egypt and the middle east, only to be in trouble because they cannot cover in 1942. You know your morale is incredibly low and your government is on the edge of collapsing once the US enters. That isn't a surprise.

If you cannot garrison Italy properly, perhaps it is due to the strategy of reaching too far early.

Any port and morale resource within a few hexes of a potential immediate invasion (i.2. within 24 hexes) has to be garrisoned and there has to be some kind of air or naval cover to avoid a single unit from invading and causing a morale issue.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 7/8/2020 11:46:37 AM >

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 12:45:48 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
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Status: offline 		How didn't you rail a couple guys into there before he ran at it? You had at least 1 turn.

You should see my Axis vs Hadros. I have everything garrisoned. No sneaky crap will be pulled on me.
And I always have reserve units ready to rail.


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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 12:47:38 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

How didn't you rail a couple guys into there before he ran at it? You had at least 1 turn.

You should see my Axis vs Hadros. I have everything garrisoned. No sneaky crap will be pulled on me.
And I always have reserve units ready to rail.



I'd love to see a screen shot.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 4:12:45 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Status: offline 		I had a similar situation happen to me. But in my case I left Trieste open because I didn't think my opponent had a unit in range. I didn't notice that he had a unit in a port near the toe of Italy that could reach. I got one chance to drive the unit out of Trieste but came up short. For me what I didn't like is that this invading enemy unit had to sail up the length of the Adriatic without being intercepted by any of my multiple air units. I did have one air unit in range of Trieste, but he soaked it off with a couple destroyer units. But I knew the Rules and so was madder at myself than the game system. Once you have had a chance to cool down Sveint I think you will feel the same. Not so much for not garrisoning Turin (I wouldn't have either) but, like Alvaro says, for not railing units into Turin the turn after the invasion.




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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 4:54:38 PM   
sillyflower


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Status: offline 		sveint's screenshot looks very similar to the last turn of my game with him when the Italians surrendered,tho' mine was a land invasion. It cost him the game, to our mutual surprise.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 7/8/2020 4:57:57 PM >

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 5:03:05 PM   
sveint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
How didn't you rail a couple guys into there before he ran at it? You had at least 1 turn.


No turns. The armour ran straight from the beach, over a mountain, into Torino.

It's incredulous that this is being described as even remotely realistic.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 5:04:02 PM   
sveint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
but, like Alvaro says, for not railing units into Turin the turn after the invasion.


There was no turn after invasion. The screenshot you see is that turn with German units railed in.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 6:38:41 PM   
ncc1701e


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Status: offline 		Are we back to the topic that invasion is too easy?

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 6:45:16 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Are we back to the topic that invasion is too easy?


I think that is the root issue.

The concept that Italy surrendered because they allowed the fall of a major city doesn't bother me.

But the fact that a unit invaded a mountainous area and then moved over more mountains seems the issue.

A simple fix to that might be that an an invasion into a hex that, by default, costs more than 1 Operation Point Cost, cannot move further that turn ( maybe can only move 1 hex).

BTW, this was one of the points behind my suggestion that you could designate land units "invasion reserve" units and they would immediately move in the fastest way possible towards an invasion.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 7/8/2020 6:46:12 PM >

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 6:45:44 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
but, like Alvaro says, for not railing units into Turin the turn after the invasion.


There was no turn after invasion. The screenshot you see is that turn with German units railed in.


OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 6:49:05 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs


Is that in the rules?


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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 7:12:13 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Invasions are definitely too easy.

But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.



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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 7:18:43 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs


Is that in the rules?



I do not think so.

quote:


Invasions — For a player to invade a location the player must embark a land unit on to a transport at a port. If there is a fleet at the port already, the embarked land unit will be part of the fleet. The fleet then can move to a
location next to or on top of hexes that can be invaded. Any hex that has water on it can be invaded. Full land hexes can’t be invaded. Hexes in which both land units and fleets can move to are considered coastal hexes. Hexes
in which fleets may move into and land units can only unload from landing craft into are considered beach hexes. Disembarking is unloading on a friendly hex that meets the criteria for an invasion.

When a fleet is on or next to a valid invasion/disembark hex, the player clicks the Show Invasion Hexes toggle within the fleet. This will display invasion hexes in red and disembark hexes in green. Now a player selects the land unit to invade or disembark and right-clicks one of the lighted hexes. The game will auto select the first unit in the fleet by default. Invading or disembarking will use all of the fleet’s remaining operation points and the amount of landing craft required for the unit to disembark the unit onto the hex. A fleet may travel up to 24 hexes and invade in the same turn.

Invaders will take 1 strength point damage for each enemy around the hex they are invading. Armor and mechanized will take double the amount of damage. If the weather is not clear, this amount will be tripled. Marine divisions take half the total amount.

The US VII corps attempts an invasion at hex 135, 53 (Normandy beach). The weather is clear and there are enemy units in Cherbourg and the forest west of Caen. VII Corps will lose 2 strength points on their invasion. If it was raining, they would lose 6 strength points during their invasion. If an American armor was invading, it would take 12 strength points of damage next to two units, in the rain, and for being an armor unit.


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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 7:20:26 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.


Beware not to impact the 1940 invasion of Norway by the Germans...

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 7:35:27 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Invasions are definitely too easy.

But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.



Agree, invasions are too easy. And, to defend sveint, I was the first to complain about the invasion of Rostov in the first turn of Barbarossa saying that it was not realistic (in a game versus sveint). And the game has been changed to avoid this invasion.

But, this does not prevent defending Italy, I agree...

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 7/8/2020 7:36:05 PM >

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:29:25 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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But here is the situation.
1940 I had ONE clear weather turns from Oct39 to May40. So I was delayed in conquering France
I botched Norway so he has it.
North Africa I held as he pushed to El Sirte, then I pushed back, surrounded and destroyed with Germans (mid 1942)
He has taken Tunisia
The Russian Front is almost 1941 historical. I didn't get far.
I did a operational location in the South taking key industrial areas and cut off a group of Soviets.
The game is up in the air. I'd say he is winning but there is one critical factor....

I build subs, 11 of them.
I sank the UK navy. It cost me the Italian navy but the German fleet is full force
The German fleet raided the Atlantic all of 1941 and some of 1942
His convoy lines are very beat up and the Western Allies are weak that I can see.

So it will probably come down to 1945. It is now late 1942

In our reverse game where I am the Allies...
He threw everything at Russia, like everything. He got very far, past Moscow, at Rostov, and cut off but didn't take Leningrad. HUGE battles.
The Western Allies hold all of the Med except Italy and Sicily.
The Western Allies are pretty strong, the Soviets not so much.
Strat bombing has been quite effective.
German Luftwaffe is Kaputz, but so is the Soviet one.

This one also is very likely to come down to 1945.

Both games are very exciting with two different styles of play. His more aggressive targeted style vs my more balanced multi-strategy style.

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RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:29:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		But like me he garrisons where he should garrison and reacts appropriately.

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