Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Without freedom, life is not worth living.

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Without freedom, life is not worth living.

I was taught in high-school, in Philosophy class, that "Freedom is the ability to exercise rational self-determination" followed by "then taking responsibility for your actions." Wasting a life for "freedom" is not rational. Wasting another's life for "freedom" (because you transmitted the Covid 19 to him) means to live forever with this responsibility on your shoulders.

Freedom = "I do what I want and I don't care" is childish, dangerous and harbinger of chaos in any society. Sure, one can moon a rabid tiger if that's freedom for him. It's one of the many ways that evolution uses.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

When the government limits people from gathering, doing business, going to church, et cetera, then your rights to do so are taken away. Those things can be done and with reasonable precautions, can be done fairly safely. I have even heard of people getting into trouble with the local government because they gathered together but did not even leave their automobiles. Some large gatherings are allowed but others are not.

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/16/philadelphia-mayor-bans-large-gatherings-except-protests-or-demonstrations/

When this is over and/or calmed down, maybe a Korean style gathering of information can be done with assurances that the information will not be kept.

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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

When the government limits people from gathering, doing business, going to church, et cetera, then your rights to do so are taken away. Those things can be done and with reasonable precautions, can be done fairly safely. I have even heard of people getting into trouble with the local government because they gathered together but did not even leave their automobiles. Some large gatherings are allowed but others are not.

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/16/philadelphia-mayor-bans-large-gatherings-except-protests-or-demonstrations/

When this is over and/or calmed down, maybe a Korean style gathering of information can be done with assurances that the information will not be kept.

But your initial point was not about rights being taken away in the context of a pandemic but a fear that they would not be returned. Do you really see some kind of 'boogieman' government round the corner in the US that in the long term would be looking to impinge upon freedoms of political association/protest, freedom of religion etc?

I already have seen rights infringed upon in the name of safety.

FWIW I agree about your final point about S. Korea (and by extension China who seem to have taken a similarly extreme approach to their management and monitoring of the public). From one perspective S. Korea and China have put the US and many European nations to shame in their management of the pandemic. But from the other perspective many of the approaches they have used would not be acceptable to the public - especially in the US/UK.

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I really don't get why mandatory mask wearing is giving up your 'freedom'.

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ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

I really don't get why mandatory mask wearing is giving up your 'freedom'.

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ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

I'm having to catch myself and take a step back and try to understand why the resistance to masks has been so strong. The only thing I can come up with is there does seem to have been a great deal of misinformation at the beginning of this pandemic, especially here in the states. Even the CDC has walked back some of its original pronouncements on masks. Dr. Fauci, just recently admitted he hadn't told the truth about masks.

This misinformation I suppose, is what was latched on to by Americans who didn't want to take this pandemic seriously, or believed in other theories about COVID-19, and so they marginalized the risks of the virus.

And this volume of change in the information being given, the different 'narratives' people have been exposed to, has made the atmosphere over wearing face masks vituperative and sometimes outright hostile, between those who believe COVID-19 is some kind of hoax, or that masks really have no impact on the virus - and those who are convinced masks do make a difference.

I personally am convinced that masks do make a difference - as are many people across the globe. 120 countries worldwide have mandated mask use by their citizens while in public spaces. However, I suppose, despite a good deal of evidence (IMO) that masks can and do make a difference, there are a number of counter arguments that the anti-maskers will make, some more reasonable than others, but of which they themselves are quite convinced are valid arguments.

So we're left with this unfortunate social environment (due to the misinformation, or the amount of conflicting information) with strong views on the subject of masks, where each side feels fairly certain that their position is correct over the other. And to add to this unfortunate environment, which in my opinion, is not helping us focus on handling this pandemic, is added the political dissension - which also often gets involved regarding the entire mask debate and/or how the pandemic should be managed.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

More number fudging from Florida. Positive tests only count once and negative people that keep testing get counted as negative as many times as they take the tests. This is exactly the kind of chicanery you get when you put partisan lawyers in charge of a science problem https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-positivity-rate-florida-paints-rosy-pandemic-picture-20200715-cpwwngaefzdnpitbs7buh7zsei-story.html

It has been done that way all over, including New York. They are not counting the people who test negative, just the number of tests. So that number fudging includes New York in the chicanery.

It's a shame there is no national standard on this. This each state choosing their own adventure is really working out well. Record cases, record infections, record hospitalizations, record death. 4% of the worlds population and 25% of the death. If only we had a Federal body or Center for disease control or a world renowned and respected expert on infectious disease that graduated first in his class from Columbia to lead us through this. If only we had a couple of States that have successfully flattened the curve to copy from. Too bad we don't have any of these things. At least Disney is open. Lets just keep on doing what we are doing and see how that works out for us? How is that going so far? But hey, Freedom!

Without freedom, life is not worth living.

So many deaths from states like New York forcing nursing homes to take Covid-19 positive patients and put them into nursing homes with the most vulnerable people.

How come you never respond to my questions? Can't answer them or are you to embarrassed to answer them?

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It isn't that Dr. Fauci "didn't tell the truth", it is more accurate to say they initially did not know the truth.

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

More number fudging from Florida. Positive tests only count once and negative people that keep testing get counted as negative as many times as they take the tests. This is exactly the kind of chicanery you get when you put partisan lawyers in charge of a science problem https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-positivity-rate-florida-paints-rosy-pandemic-picture-20200715-cpwwngaefzdnpitbs7buh7zsei-story.html

It has been done that way all over, including New York. They are not counting the people who test negative, just the number of tests. So that number fudging includes New York in the chicanery.

It's a shame there is no national standard on this. This each state choosing their own adventure is really working out well. Record cases, record infections, record hospitalizations, record death. 4% of the worlds population and 25% of the death. If only we had a Federal body or Center for disease control or a world renowned and respected expert on infectious disease that graduated first in his class from Columbia to lead us through this. If only we had a couple of States that have successfully flattened the curve to copy from. Too bad we don't have any of these things. At least Disney is open. Lets just keep on doing what we are doing and see how that works out for us? How is that going so far? But hey, Freedom!

Without freedom, life is not worth living.

So many deaths from states like New York forcing nursing homes to take Covid-19 positive patients and put them into nursing homes with the most vulnerable people.

How come you never respond to my questions? Can't answer them or are you to embarrassed to answer them?

We acquiesce to safety rules all the time - wearing hard hats in construction zones, wearing seat belts in cars, obeying red lights. Freedom is never absolute, so if the restriction is reasonable for the situation, just roll with it.

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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

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ORIGINAL: 22sec

I think for some the issue is that they look at under what law, or a state's constitution, an executive such as a governor or mayor has the legal authority to issue an order that carries with it a penalty. We should ask as American's is our Bill of Rights, our rule of law, only applicable when the government says it is, and that it can be tossed aside for any emergency? I will leave you with this example. In April, our mayor on his own decided to ban people from open carry within the city of Jackson. Thankfully even Jackson's City Council slapped him down, and he was force to quickly withdraw the order. It is a slippery slope, and one that goes against the foundation of this republic.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

More stores are requiring masks in the area. There are more Covid-19 infections now and the rate is increasing. A local athlete on a softball team tested positive so those activities are shut down for a couple of weeks. Three or four adults may be been exposed to the corona virus due to this.

I was going to go to town today but the person that I was going to meet is unwell. No fever, just weak and Lucy Bowels visited. I suggested a Covid-19 test anyway because it can affect there as well.

Maybe I should see about getting a M-17A1 or a M-25 to wear, but I don't have glasses for them. I do know someone who smoked a cigarette while wearing a M17A1.

Right now, I have a pretty female laying between my legs . . .

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ORIGINAL: Rising-Sun

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

More stores are requiring masks in the area. There are more Covid-19 infections now and the rate is increasing. A local athlete on a softball team tested positive so those activities are shut down for a couple of weeks. Three or four adults may be been exposed to the corona virus due to this.

I was going to go to town today but the person that I was going to meet is unwell. No fever, just weak and Lucy Bowels visited. I suggested a Covid-19 test anyway because it can affect there as well.

Maybe I should see about getting a M-17A1 or a M-25 to wear, but I don't have glasses for them. I do know someone who smoked a cigarette while wearing a M17A1.

Right now, I have a pretty female laying between my legs . . .

IDK i seen some people been doing strange thing, esp wearing Jason hockey mask instead and he was over six feet tall in his jump suit.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: 22sec

I think for some the issue is that they look at under what law, or a state's constitution, an executive such as a governor or mayor has the legal authority to issue an order that carries with it a penalty. We should ask as American's is our Bill of Rights, our rule of law, only applicable when the government says it is, and that it can be tossed aside for any emergency? I will leave you with this example. In April, our mayor on his own decided to ban people from open carry within the city of Jackson. Thankfully even Jackson's City Council slapped him down, and he was force to quickly withdraw the order. It is a slippery slope, and one that goes against the foundation of this republic.

That is what I mean by losing our freedoms.

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ORIGINAL: Rising-Sun

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

More stores are requiring masks in the area. There are more Covid-19 infections now and the rate is increasing. A local athlete on a softball team tested positive so those activities are shut down for a couple of weeks. Three or four adults may be been exposed to the corona virus due to this.

I was going to go to town today but the person that I was going to meet is unwell. No fever, just weak and Lucy Bowels visited. I suggested a Covid-19 test anyway because it can affect there as well.

Maybe I should see about getting a M-17A1 or a M-25 to wear, but I don't have glasses for them. I do know someone who smoked a cigarette while wearing a M17A1.

Right now, I have a pretty female laying between my legs . . .

IDK i seen some people been doing strange thing, esp wearing Jason hockey mask instead and he was over six feet tall in his jump suit.

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ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Everything needs to be taken into context.

So in case of a flood, it's cool for the Mayor or the governor to issue an evacuation. In the case of fire, they could call for an evacuation. Those are emergencies and citizens expect elected leaders to take charge to protect lives and property. I would argue that it should be no different for the wearing of masks and the temporary closing of certain types of businesses (emphasis on the word temporary). Now if I own a tattoo parlor and the mayor/governor shuts me down for a few months I'm probably pissed. But if the CDC and advisors that are considered experts in the field of pandemics tell me that masks and separation will knock down the spread... If in my city/state I'm a mayor or governor and I see the number of positive tests increasing hand-over-fist, and if I see the ICUs reaching their max potential in the hospitals, what are my options?

......For the case of wearing masks and trying to maintain separation while a pandemic is raging in my city/state, I don't think it unreasonable for an elected official to try to mitigate the spread of the virus via temporary mandates.

Right now in California, our positive tests are skyrocketing. The governor has put restrictions on businesses. No movie theatres, outdoor dining only - only serving alcohol with meals. Wear a mask (now with penalties if you don't) and maintain separation when possible. A *lot* of schools will start doing distance learning for K-12 and most of the colleges.

The problem, as I see it, is that we don't have a unified response nation-wide. Let's say that in California we really lock down hard and through shelter-in-place and mask/social distancing plus shutting down most businesses for 45 days, we knock the virus spread down to a trickle. But in Arizona - in that state - what if they don't do anything to mitigate the virus spread and their infection rate is still high or increasing? A vector in California is now a border state. Should states be shutting down borders with other states? I submit that just as a governor or mayor can give emergency orders in their state for disasters, the president can do the same. Hell - he can start a war without the approval of congress and, per the War Powers Act, he just has to notify Congress within 48 hours and can deploy troops for 60 days without the approval of congress. I feel we should be fighting the virus as one nation - undivided.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: durnedwolf


I saw a picture of someone using gauze around the face with a sticker over the chin that says placebo...

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And masks made of mesh, crochet (yarn) or lace are now popular items being offered by internet retailers. Most include warnings stating the items “are NOT intended for protection or COVID use.” But protection is not what anti-mask protesters are looking for.

“Make your own Anti Mask!” said the seller of a pattern to create your own anti-mask. The description of the product states: “Stylish, breathable and don't protect you from a darn thing! Masks required? No problem! Breath free while making a statement.”