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Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 2:54:05 AM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		I'm getting very frustrated with the arbitrary nature of the tech discoveries
access to power via the power plant or solar panels is critical as you transition into midgame
I have discovered 12 techs in economy so far and no power

feels bad man

anything I might be missing? this is trashing my otherwise fun and challenging game
Post #: 1
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 3:02:10 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		That's why I will never start at tech 3.

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 2
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 3:46:50 AM   
eddieballgame

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline 		I always start on Tech 3 & always get at least 'Power Plant' & or 'Solar Panels' fairly soon.
In fact, I consistently get all of the 'Basic Tech' in due time.
First you need the 'Director of Economic Council'.
The key is to max out the 'Discovery' (90/10 is ok & even 100 is fine for awhile) until you get what you want & then set the sliders to some 'Research', while keeping in mind that as soon as you complete the Research of 3 techs in the 'Basic Tech Branch' then the complete tech tree opens up to other opportunities, with the same mechanics in play. ( as I understand it)
Of course, for 'Applied Science' you need a a 'Director of Applied Science Council'.


< Message edited by eddieballgame -- 7/20/2020 8:00:15 AM >

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 3
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 6:31:46 AM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame
as soon as you complete the Research of 3 techs in the 'Basic Tech Branch'



You will unlock all following branches. And yes, it's a best strategy as we really need only two technologies (aside from power) from "Basic Tech" - automatic rifles and padded envirosuits :)

(in reply to eddieballgame)
Post #: 4
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 10:22:11 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Personally I started starting on T4. You got the Power unlocked. Personally I think it (and electrical motors for that mater) should be starting tech.

If you start on T3: Go full discovery first!
If you research 3 techs, you unlock a new group, wich makes it harder to draw the tech you want. So do not research until you got the techs you need discovered.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 5
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 10:34:28 AM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree that fuel-based Power Plants should be basic tech. Or at least level 1 of them. Solar panels should be basic IMHO only for moon & planetoid start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

(and electrical motors for that mater)


No, tech3 is even less then our modern tech and electrical motors aren't existing now - for combat vehicles completely and for civilian vehicles they're unsuitable (taking their energy consumption in mind, our current economics allow them to "develop" but it's gonna crazy in last decades and this is a completely different story). And they will perform much much worse without modern well-developed infrastructure = after apocalypse we had in game. Only with magical (tm) batteries they should be a viable tool so they should be near laser rifles & other ultra-tech stuff.

Well, honestly, magic batteries = pocket mega-bombs (even modern LiPo batteries are annoying and dangerous when on fire). So I highly doubt they will be ever allowed for civilian usage, hehe.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 6
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 10:56:07 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Yes, I agree that fuel-based Power Plants should be basic tech. Or at least level 1 of them. Solar panels should be basic IMHO only for moon & planetoid start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

(and electrical motors for that mater)


No, tech3 is even less then our modern tech and electrical motors aren't existing now - for combat vehicles completely and for civilian vehicles they're unsuitable (taking their energy consumption in mind, our current economics allow them to "develop" but it's gonna crazy in last decades and this is a completely different story). And they will perform much much worse without modern well-developed infrastructure = after apocalypse we had in game. Only with magical (tm) batteries they should be a viable tool so they should be near laser rifles & other ultra-tech stuff.

Well, honestly, magic batteries = pocket mega-bombs (even modern LiPo batteries are annoying and dangerous when on fire). So I highly doubt they will be ever allowed for civilian usage, hehe.

Trains, Submarines and Tanks would like to have a word about "not having electrical motors".
Even if they use a Petrol or Diesel Engine as generator, they still very much move by electrical motor.
As would every military vehicle that runs on a Aluminum Air Battery.

The only reason our battery tech is that far behind, is because we had plenty of petrol to burn instead.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 7
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 11:27:06 AM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Trains, Submarines and Tanks would like to have a word about "not having electrical motors".


Submarines are obvious exception and let's look their latest cutting edge - it isn't a new kind of battery but anaerobic engine :) And I thought it was obvious that as SE currently have only land units we aren't discussing navy&aircraft.
Trains aren't combat vehicles. Trains are using power lines. I think it's obvious that after apocalypse war there is very few power lines remaining intact. And building power lines is quite expensive.
Tanks... Lol. We had several attempts to build tanks with electric transmission but they all failed. Tank is extremely complex warmachine with tons of limitations and ET don't fit it well now. Batteries are used at bare minimum to provide everyday operation as they're too dangerous - HEAT/kinetic shell piercing a fuel tank is safe (some modern designs even using fuel tanks as additional layer of protection) while for battery is a extremely dangerous situation. And after any notable internal fire tank is going into smelter, so ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
The only our battery tech is that far behind, is because we had plenty of petrol to burn instead.

Hehe. You're a big optimist :)
Navy waste huge money on battery development for a +/- century because of submarines. Really huge in last half-century after submarines glorious success in WW2. Any notable result? No, they shifted their attention to anaerobic power plants. Do you really think that navy is poor or hire dumb researchers?

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 8
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 11:56:46 AM   
Hazard151

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/15/2020
Status: offline 		Electrical vehicles have been viable for decades actually, it's just that they are viable for certain purposes. Long range driving and only incidental driving are not among them, but regular point to point city driving, just plug in the vehicle at the end of the day?

They are very good at that.

It's just that cars are expensive in use and maintenance so why bother with buying a battery powered vehicle when the combustion powered one can do all that too and more.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 9
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 4:06:08 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		I should mention that I did start with the 4 councils, so I did have economic council

I guess in the early game I need to min/max to the extreme so that I can find a power source. I think i question the core concept of the system that tech discovery is random and arbitrary

(in reply to Hazard151)
Post #: 10
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 4:59:19 PM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos
I think i question the core concept of the system that tech discovery is random and arbitrary


Only partially random - there is a chance to discover tech earlier then should based on leader skill.

Everything else isn't purely random. It's follow weighted logic so :
1) "Cheaper" technologies are first in 99% cases.
2) Low-weighted technologies are last in 99% cases.

Main source of everyone frustration that Vic'd made arbitrary decision to make both early power generators low-weighted technologies (together with storages). So usually you need to discover all other economic techs in "Basic Techs" area.

Once you'd get it - it's very easy to receive power generators relatively fast. Or you could surrender and start at Tech4

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 11
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 5:07:46 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yea i had about 6 turns left of power, so I cranked up my discovery to 92%
Waited patiently for results and got....deep core mining FML!
so now its coming down to the wire, i have about 2 turns left of power and i get volcanic energy tapping!! this is my chance to turn it around at the last minute, I check my lands and NO VOLCANOs

FML

with 2 turns of energy left I am invading my major power neighbor who has solar panels. I don't know if I can salvage this in time but we shall see

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 12
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 5:18:21 PM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

Waited patiently for results and got....deep core mining FML!


1) You'd unlocked new tech areas before getting important techs there. It was a mistake. 3 researched (!) techs in a single area will unlock discovery of techs in every connected area (this is stated in research tree tooltip).
If I'm remember correctly - Power Plants is a very cheap tech, so all you need is to catch them. Solars are a bit expensive, yes.
2) You can reduce energy consumption by reducing output (or even mothballing) not important assets.

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 13
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 5:28:28 PM   
lloydster4

 

Posts: 164
Joined: 6/19/2020
Status: offline 		There's so many things you can do to move the odds in your favor.

-Hire a good Economic Council Director, and maintain high relations
-Shift priorities of economic council to tech discovery
-Allocate more national budget to economic council
-Upgrade high command asset, or build bureaucratic assets


(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 14
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 5:34:32 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		demiare I don't understand how I made a mistake, I chose from the techs given to me. Its turn 42 and I have no solar and no power
Are you saying that after researching like hospitals and sealed roads(giving me 2 of the 3) I should never research anything again until I discover power plant or solar panels?

How does that make sense as a game mechanic?

its awkward as hell.

On turn 41 I took over my Major neighbors city , because he had solar panels. Solar panels destroyed in taking the city. FML
then to add insult to injury i discovered water purification.

I need to take a break, this is not cool.

I just want to add one detail, I'm ranting a lot because some of the mechanics of the game don't make sense to me and seem counter-intuitive. I love this game, but I fear that as it hits steam and a wider market if needs some polish. I appreciate the suggestions and I will adapt my play to try to game this subsystem more. But its just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, how fussy it is. I want it to be smoother so I can convince my civ 6 playing friends to give it a try!

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 15
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 7:06:32 PM   
lloydster4

 

Posts: 164
Joined: 6/19/2020
Status: offline 		If preserving enemy assets is your primary concern, then you need to avoid using artillery or tanks. Small arms and MG's will not damage assets.

"Running Out" of power doesn't mean your game is over. It just means you'll suffer production penalties until you can resolve the situation. Considering your situation, your best bet is to reduce the output of your Industrial assets.

The solutions to these problems are not as arcane as you make them out to be.

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 16
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 7:07:59 PM   
Foxador

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		Yea I've made it to turn 60 before with no sealed roads, hospital, barracks, solar or power plants a few times. Like you I would keep getting tech discovers for stuff at the bottom of the tech tree that I either couldn't use because I have no power or were pointless.

I pretty much just had to give up because I couldn't do anything with just the basic amount of power that I started the game with.

I also think that everyone just saying that you need to stop researching and just do nothing but discovery to get them are missing the point. That's a dumb thing that you're forced into doing just to get a basic tech and it shouldn't be accepted. Basic tech is BASIC which means that from a game standpoint you shouldn't even be able to do the advanced things in the game or be able to research them until the BASIC tech stuff is finished.

Without power you're locked out of almost everything as you can't build up your infrastructure, your QOL or resources since they all take power

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 17
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 7:30:25 PM   
eddieballgame

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline 		In the end, this is a game with certain unique game mechanics.
Understanding how game mechanics have an impact on any game is the key to getting the most out of the developer's vision for what he likes/wants.
Personally, I like how the research & tech is handled.
Unlike many games of this genre, there are multiple ways to increase your chances of getting what you want per tech without just relying on random luck or, simply, just choosing what you want.

One can argue it needs to be more forgiving in ensuring one gets what they need/want so as not to scare certain folks away or ruin their enjoyment of the game.
Personally, I wish there was a setting where one started with even less or zero 'Early Tech'. (& maybe modding will allow us to experiment with ideas of this nature...good or bad)
From playing, reading & watching...it appears 'Vic' has struck gold in his design concepts & I, for one, could not be more pleased.

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 18
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 8:14:50 PM   
Maerchen

 

Posts: 348
Joined: 6/16/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Atm I play on slow tech research. I just got lucky and found 5 geysirs in a 10 hex radius around my capital.

But yes, OP, the random tech discovery can make one go nuts sometimes. If this game taught me anything I need to have more, it is patience.

_____________________________

The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

(in reply to eddieballgame)
Post #: 19
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 8:29:48 PM   
Hazard151

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/15/2020
Status: offline 		I understand that not having any power generating tech, even very inefficient tech, is very frustrating.

At the same time I'm with Eddie. Give me a Tech Level 2, 1 or even 0 option. I may not make use of it every time, but it'd be quite a thing to face and deal with.

(in reply to Maerchen)
Post #: 20
RE: Can't get power plant - 7/20/2020 10:00:30 PM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

demiare I don't understand how I made a mistake, I chose from the techs given to me. Its turn 42 and I have no solar and no power
Are you saying that after researching like hospitals and sealed roads(giving me 2 of the 3) I should never research anything again until I discover power plant or solar panels?


Yes.

For min-max gameplay you should ignored hospitals and sealed roads (useless until mid-game), taking only automatic rifles and padded envirosuits until you will get power.

This game is VERY complex. You should either fully read manual (for example it's describe how research work) or carefully study whole UI and tooltips everywhere (as I already'd mentioned - in research tree overview tooltip will told about how research is working and "rule 3". Or you will fail. Don't be mad about it.

This game is more like Dwarf Fortress or Aurora 4X then simply game like Stellaris. You will learn by failing (or studying a lot before playing).

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 21
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