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RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1

 
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RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 6:35:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		People are also talking about moving the battle fleet south using a magic move. If that would have happened, then the Allies might have been on a war footing, hence much less surprise.

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(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 31
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 6:43:53 PM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw


Hi, can you provide step by step instructions on this merging/magic move combo? I am unable to replicate it, thanks!


Create the non magic move task force > route the magic move task force through non magic move task force with a waypoint > tell non magic move task force to merge with magic move task force > success
Some notes; Magic move task forces doesnt burn fuel and they dont take system damage from full speed ,so use full speed for maximum effect


Thank you very much. I will look into this, it does open up a lot of possibilities!

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 32
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 7:36:51 PM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw



Thank you very much. I will look into this, it does open up a lot of possibilities!



Keep in mind that when playing against an experienced player, especially someone with experience playing Japan, they have complete knowledge of the Japanese start positions. They know, for example, that there is an undefended convoy, containing a complete division, that starts near Okinawa. This convoy is poorly designed and contains, if I recall correctly, a number of slow xAKs.

Typically a house rule is implemented to prevent Japan from fully exploiting knowledge of start positions by not allowing KB to magic move to the hexes containing U.S. CVs. What house rule could prevent a U.S. player from moving Boise and Houston at full speed toward the convoy at Okinawa? Would you prevent the U.S. player from engaging Japanese amphibious convoys for 3 days. I suspect every Allied player would object, and rightly so.

Should Japan then be forced to divert assets from their invasion cover SAGs or their carrier arm to defend against an unrealistically omniscient opponent? For these reasons, I think that using magic moves to merge TFs and change around some start positions to get a couple vulnerable convoys into better position is reasonable.

< Message edited by Alamander -- 7/20/2020 7:46:54 PM >

(in reply to awaw)
Post #: 33
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 8:05:32 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		But the Houston and the Boise are in port. They can't move first turn unless the Allies are allowed to make task forces. In that case, what is in Pearl Harbor to bomb but a couple of hapless PT Boats? There are other ships that an move fast and support those convoys. That is besides air power.

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Post #: 34
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 8:28:51 PM   
Evoken

 

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Status: offline 		Wrong. Both of them start with task forces

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 35
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 8:32:57 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But the Houston and the Boise are in port. They can't move first turn unless the Allies are allowed to make task forces. In that case, what is in Pearl Harbor to bomb but a couple of hapless PT Boats? There are other ships that an move fast and support those convoys. That is besides air power.


My mistake, I have not open the Allied side for months. But two ships? The IJN has ships that can move to intercept long before those two can get to a fleet that starts in Okinawa.

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Post #: 36
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 10:42:18 PM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
My mistake, I have not open the Allied side for months. But two ships? The IJN has ships that can move to intercept long before those two can get to a fleet that starts in Okinawa.



They don't. The only SAGs that begin in magic move TFs, if I recall correctly, are the "Hvy Cover" grp with Kongo and Haruna off the coast of Malaysia, and the CA Chokai with 3 DDs at Samah. A CA group at Takao may begin as a magic move TF, though I think it does not, as it is designed to cover the northern Luzon landings. The other BBs are in the Home Islands. There is a CA group covering the Guam invasion TF, and a CA group near Babeldaod. Houston and Boise could beat this group to Okinawa unless the Babeldaod group moves at full-speed and leaves the amphibious TFs there without SAG cover. It is only 1 turn full-speed move from Legaspi to intercept the TF near Okinawa. KB is the only other group that could cover them with a magic move if no adjustments are made to TFs.

This is why adjustments to the magic move TFs are essential in a game against a human opponent with knowledge of Japan's at-start positions.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 37
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/20/2020 11:22:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		Aren't there DDs with the magic movement in the Home Islands? Or is that Scenario 2?

If the task force is in Okinawa, there are cruisers and DDs in and around Takao.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 38
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/21/2020 12:21:39 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
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From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Not intending anything gamey (w/o permission) ..... And intend to limit it anyways ....

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Post #: 39
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/21/2020 12:36:12 AM   
Alamander

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 4/29/2020
Status: offline 		Remember that Lowpe knows, better than anyone, the position of all of your units at start and where you are weak. He also knows little secret weaknesses that only someone very familiar with Japan would know. For example, I am sure that he knows that the A5M4s in the Marshalls cannot upgrade to A6M2s except with an air HQ at Truk and that your air HQ in the Marshalls starts out of position on Kwajalein, a size 1 airfield. There are others like this as well, and when you are looking over your forces, assume that your opponent already knows where you are weak: especially your specific opponent in this game.

So, you probably want to modify some magic move TFs and probably merge some other TFs into magic move TFs to cover some of these weak points. I usually do, since I assume that any opponent can open the scenario and look at my starting positions. I don't think this is gamey at all, and I highly doubt that Lowpe would either. Japan's opening moves are not all about making big strides forward. It is also important to cover yourself and protect your forces.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 40
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/21/2020 1:48:07 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		I would not make presumptions about what other people think unless there is direct evidence of this.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Alamander)
Post #: 41
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/21/2020 2:50:58 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I would not make presumptions about what other people think unless there is direct evidence of this.


Very wise observation.

There wouldn't be too many experienced Allied exclusive players who would not be unaware of the Claude upgrading issue. Just because I haven't commented upon it in the past most definitely does not mean I was unaware of it. Just as I'm aware of other initial Japanese weaknesses.

As to the first turn move bonus, much of what I'm seeing in this thread is most definitely not what was intended by the devs. If there was any development work still undertaken, there would be a close look at some of the more extreme possibilities.

The design of the first turn move bonus was first and foremost, only for the benefit of the AI to allow it to achieve the historical day 1 moves. It was not designed to allow the Japanese player to permanently destroy the Allied historical structural capabilities before the Allied player has even had an opportunity to input any orders.

The idea that Japan has to abuse the first move bonus in order to survive is just absolute nonsense. Once again a conclusion made by players who willfully not play the game according to its set victory conditions.

Alfred

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 42
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/21/2020 3:57:14 AM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The design of the first turn move bonus was first and foremost, only for the benefit of the AI to allow it to achieve the historical day 1 moves. It was not designed to allow the Japanese player to permanently destroy the Allied historical structural capabilities before the Allied player has even had an opportunity to input any orders.

The idea that Japan has to abuse the first move bonus in order to survive is just absolute nonsense. Once again a conclusion made by players who willfully not play the game according to its set victory conditions.

Alfred



The devs included the option to both play with an historical turn 1 or to begin the game on Dec. 8th for those who wish to do so. If you want to limit the Japanese opening move to what was done historically, why would you not just play one of these scenarios?

BTW, DBB does removes the 2 magic move TFs in the home islands that can be used to "pick up" the Okinawa TF, so if this really bothers you, that option is also available.

Again, Alfred, we are talking about picking up a couple of air support units, maybe a tank regiment, moving the TF at Okinawa out of harm's way, or moving around a couple CAs to act as a cover group. Compared to skipping steps in R&D to get 1945 aircraft in late 1942 or constantly modifying xAKLs to CMcs to get infinite mines, this is very small potatos.

Following your logic, a house rule against hunting CVs would be not "willfully playing the game against set victory conditions:" whatever that means.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 43
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 12:31:33 PM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken
quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
Hi, can you provide step by step instructions on this merging/magic move combo? I am unable to replicate it, thanks!

Create the non magic move task force > route the magic move task force through non magic move task force with a waypoint > tell non magic move task force to merge with magic move task force > success
Some notes; Magic move task forces doesnt burn fuel and they dont take system damage from full speed ,so use full speed for maximum effect

I second that it works exactly as described. The idea is to ensure that non-magic TF spends an absolute minimum of its action points before the merger. Because the remaining action points % transfer to a magic-move TF and applies as a restriction to further magic move.

I picked up BBs and CVL/CVEs from Home Islands all the way to CRB this way.

First of all, thank you for the tips. Did some testings....... I like to confirm, we can only merge ONE TF into the original magic TF ?

Eg, is this even possible?
Magic TF 1 waypoint move to hex A.
TF 2 (undocked) in hex A merge into TF 1
TF 3 (docked in port and loading troops) in hex A merge into TF 1.

TF3 cannot be premerged into TF2 due to port docking limits. Have not been able to suceed in the above combo so far.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 44
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 12:56:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Undock TF 2 and try again.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to awaw)
Post #: 45
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 12:58:46 PM   
awaw

 

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Status: offline 		But TF 2 is already undocked?

Or do you mean,
1. Undock TF3.
2. Dock/Undock TF2.
3. Dock TF3 (so that they finish loading in turn 1)

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 46
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 1:12:54 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Remember, while you have the amphibious bonus, you suffer no penalties when you land where there is no base . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 47
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 2:15:05 PM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		This is borderline...OK...over the borderline gamey, but I'm curious.

Has anyone added or removed the asterix character from a TF name by editing for first turn magic move optionality? Would it work? How does the turn AI process TF names with the asterix-does it care how it got an asterix?

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RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 2:31:52 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

People are also talking about moving the battle fleet south using a magic move. If that would have happened, then the Allies might have been on a war footing, hence much less surprise.


The game system does not deal at all well with the Allies being ready for the Japanese attack.

I have completely reversed the initial game situation so that the Japanese AI walks into an Allied ambush with the Japanese stuck with their initial historical move on turn 0 and the Allies free to do whatever they want. The Japanese suffer somewhat greater losses than normal such that no Japanese Player who was not a complete masochist would even consider continuing the game beyond Turn 1. But Allied bombers still don't hit much of anything with their bombs, Allied CAP doesn't shoot down many Japanese planes, Japanese CAP shoots down most Allied bombers, Allied Surf TF don't engage or if they do the Japanese TF withdraws before losses get catastrophic (as in Japanese TF#1 lost 1 CV sunk and 2 damaged when attacked by several SS TFs, land based air, then CV air, then first a CA/DD Surf TF then two 4BB/CL/DD TFs and these heavy losses occurred only once thru 6 or 7 tries).





r

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 49
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 2:43:24 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		You should see what happens when the IJN loses 3 big carriers shortly after the Pearl Harbor raid - to the USS Arizona!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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Post #: 50
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 2:49:30 PM   
Evoken

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This is borderline...OK...over the borderline gamey, but I'm curious.

Has anyone added or removed the asterix character from a TF name by editing for first turn magic move optionality? Would it work? How does the turn AI process TF names with the asterix-does it care how it got an asterix?

First turn move bonus doesnt have anything to do with asterix , i tried in editor you can make all the task forces with move bonus , even allies

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 51
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 3:34:27 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This is borderline...OK...over the borderline gamey, but I'm curious.


Is that in reference to landing at no base? It would work nicely on Java with the grey roads and rail lines. Tanks ashore with supplies can move quickly to a base and attack. No CD guns to bother with. How many bases within reach of one IJA Army HQ?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 52
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 6:47:05 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This is borderline...OK...over the borderline gamey, but I'm curious.


Is that in reference to landing at no base? It would work nicely on Java with the grey roads and rail lines. Tanks ashore with supplies can move quickly to a base and attack. No CD guns to bother with. How many bases within reach of one IJA Army HQ?


Nah. It's in reference to editing out an infinite number of 'magic move' TFs. I wasn't sure the relevance of the asterix character in the name relative to the magic move. Evoken addressed my question.

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Post #: 53
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 7:20:11 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Remember that there are DD TFs with the Magic Moves in Japan. If I remember correctly, the first 10 TFs have them.

Ambush the Boise with 10 DDs with surprise . . .

Of course, I did sink the Boise on December 7th in my current game against the computer. Now to do the second turn.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 54
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/24/2020 7:28:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This is borderline...OK...over the borderline gamey, but I'm curious.


Is that in reference to landing at no base? It would work nicely on Java with the grey roads and rail lines. Tanks ashore with supplies can move quickly to a base and attack. No CD guns to bother with. How many bases within reach of one IJA Army HQ?


Nah. It's in reference to editing out an infinite number of 'magic move' TFs. I wasn't sure the relevance of the asterix character in the name relative to the magic move. Evoken addressed my question.


Well, that is useful information in a Scenario situation such as: what if the US Navy had suspicions that the Japanese would do what the did at Pearl Harbor and had the Enterprise, the Lexington, and the Saratoga there to greet the carriers when most of the Japanese aircraft were gone? Have that along with a massive CAP over Oahu?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 55
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/26/2020 9:09:17 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
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From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Alright, messing around with a SF magic move TF being directed thru a port hex with a non magic move Amphib TF with the intent for merging existing Amphib TF to SF TF .....

Now I'm guessing I need to change SF TF to Amphib with a way point where the Amphib TF is at .... But when I tag the original Amphib TF and undock it, I'm not seeing Merge TF as an option ... only Meet or Follow ....... What am I missing .....?????

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 56
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/26/2020 9:26:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Maybe you are trying to be too complicated?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 57
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/26/2020 11:14:31 PM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe you are trying to be too complicated?


Nah, he's trying to be as authentic as possible. "Too complicated" is almost every Japanese operation in WW2.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 58
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/27/2020 12:04:14 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe you are trying to be too complicated?


Nah, he's trying to be as authentic as possible. "Too complicated" is almost every Japanese operation in WW2.


Too true. Just charge up the middle and let the enemy worry about his flanks.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 59
RE: Splitting up the KB on Turn 0 for Turn 1 - 7/27/2020 12:31:48 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		I agree with Ranger Joe. Manipulation of the special movement, that represents the fact that those TFs had already gone to sea in the days preceding hostilities, especially to do things like Mersing that take advantage of knowledge of Allied dispositions, would be unacceptable.

Question for Alamander - what is the latest date that you have played to as the IJ in a PBEM?

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