Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You may want to consider the issue was top of the national risk register in the UK for quite some time. Not exactly "unprecedented"

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

[Sarcasm] It's the fault of the public.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Why was it possible to book holidays in the first place

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds. Don't like x from y party? Well that's handy because he/she's in charge when Covid struck so regardless of what they do I'll stick the boot in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You may want to consider the issue was top of the national risk register in the UK for quite some time. Not exactly "unprecedented"

warspite1

It's like naivety city. The possibility of a World War was on the minds of the British, French, Americans etc etc for 'quite some time' before the war. So does that mean they were all fully prepared, and knew exactly what to expect when it came? Because as we know, knowing something might possibly happen, but we don't know what form it will take or how bad, means we can be fully prepared when it (whatever it is) comes....

Oh and you may want to look up what words mean. That it was not unexpected doesn't make what has happened unprecedented

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

[Sarcasm] It's the fault of the public.

warspite1

Strange. So when people completely disregard advice on social distancing - that is the Government's fault? I should have known you were a fully paid up member of the "nothing's my fault" brigade......

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Why was it possible to book holidays in the first place

warspite1

....and there is the confirmation

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY

quote:


Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds. Don't like x from y party? Well that's handy because he/she's in charge when Covid struck so regardless of what they do I'll stick the boot in.

quote:

It's like naivety city. The possibility of a World War was on the minds of the British, French, Americans etc etc for 'quite some time' before the war. So does that mean they were all fully prepared, and knew exactly what to expect when it came? Because as we know, knowing something might possibly happen, but we don't know what form it will take or how bad, means we can be fully prepared when it (whatever it is) comes....


Oh and you may want to look up what words mean. That it was not unexpected doesn't make what has happened unprecedented

quote:

Strange. So when people completely disregard advice on social distancing - that is the Government's fault?

quote:

I should have known you were a fully paid up member of the "nothing's my fault" brigade......

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter

New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.

South Korea is the place to emulate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter

New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.

South Korea is the place to emulate.

We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter

New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.

South Korea is the place to emulate.

We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.

So after a dozen times you still can't comprehend it.

Korea had no curve to flatten because they had few cases because of their preparedness. That is what you want to emulate. Not New York City which could not even maintain their stockpile of masks and ventilators. That was set up a few years back. But New York City is not the only entity which did not maintain their stockpiles. But the best is not needing the stuff in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.

Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.

So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.

New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter

New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.

South Korea is the place to emulate.

We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.

So after a dozen times you still can't comprehend it.

Korea had no curve to flatten because they had few cases because of their preparedness. That is what you want to emulate. Not New York City which could not even maintain their stockpile of masks and ventilators. That was set up a few years back. But New York City is not the only entity which did not maintain their stockpiles. But the best is not needing the stuff in the first place.

I think you missed John's point - that NY is a better case in point because it did have a massive outbreak and had to suppress it with max effort at every level. Because Korea never got a massive outbreak, it does not show the example of how to overcome it.

I don't know what the stuff about "maintaining stockpiles" has to do with it - as the first place in the US with a massive problem, NY was first to try and get its hands on PPE and met all kinds of interference from various quarters. And some of the PPE from National Stockpiles transferred to NY was faulty, time expired junk. In all the chaos it would be understandable if something was not handled well - but they knew what they were trying to do and they put max effort into doing it. If there is any lesson from NY and Italy, it is that half-hearted measures are not enough - you need to get strict with the people to ensure the virus does not spread faster than it can be dealt with because there will always be some who think the rules don't apply to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You missed the chance for bonus points by not referencing blitz spirit, by the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Depending on something so vague in the context of this pandemic has been interpreted as dangerous, and the shift in messaging from "stay at home" to the much less clear "stay alert" was picked up on by many.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

We did have a pretty big outbreak in Korea centered around one large church in Daegu and fortunately, because of our MERS fiasco in 2015, we had legislation and a testing infrastructure in place to deal with it. If we hadn't had the MERS fiasco in 2015 I'm not sure how this would have played out (it's hard to tell exactly since Japan hasn't been completely stellar in tracing and testing and still seems to be doing fairly well). We also force anyone entering the country, except diplomats and I'd guess some other VIPs like the head of Samsung, who recently went to China, to undergo a 14-day quarantine upon arrival. One American buddy of mine has done the quarantine twice. Luckily his company is cool with that.

Another helpful aspect is this virus hasn't been politicized here at all and there was even a legislative election in April. The opposition party hasn't seen it as a winning issue. Hospitals in Korea have been prescribing hydroxychloroquine, broad spectrum antibiotics and anti-HIV drugs from Day 1 since there was a SARS study from 2003 showing they were effective in fighting SARS. I don't know if they've adapted that treatment regime since but the level of deaths here is quite low.

My cousin who is a doc in DC just took a Phase III vaccine or placebo yesterday. Let's hope that trial works out well and the world gets back to normal sooner rather than later.

Cheers,
CB

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

quote:

No reason for you to bring that up. But I shouldn't be surprised. Whether you like it or not - and clearly you hate it - a 'Blitz Spirit' did exist. Oh of course it has been blown up for propaganda purposes initially and then, because of a typical human trait to romanticise the past. But it was there. For a great many.

quote:

As the early weeks of this pandemic showed, events like this or a world war bring out the best in people and the worst in people. So with the pandemic, so with the war, there were those seeking to cash in and use it as a chance to make at others expense. But for a great many it was a time to do their bit and often more. We've seen this with the pandemic. I just don't understand why you feel the need to hate on that sort of thing.

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So where - in "Stay Alert" have the people been told its okay to gather in large groups without any concern (football celebrations / beaches / pubs / marches)? Where have they been told this?

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Yes, we have personal responsibility. You seem to prefer a nanny state where we are all told what to do and when to do it by a Government.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency.

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency.

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first :)

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency.

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first :)

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency.

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first :)

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

It can happen. It has in the UK.

It is ideologically unappealing to some to do so, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

Boy, have you even read the reasoning behind mind_messing line of thought? Try putting your obsession for "everybody is fixated with party politics!" for 5 seconds - mostly because is not true. It is impossible to express an opinion on how the crisis is/should be managed without going with or against a political party line.

Of course if you assume that every freely expressed opinion is automatically a political declaration, then, yes, I agree that some people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

Boy, have you even read the reasoning behind mind_messing line of thought? Try putting your obsession for "everybody is fixated with party politics!" for 5 seconds - mostly because is not true. It is impossible to express an opinion on how the crisis is/should be managed without going with or against a political party line.

Of course if you assume that every freely expressed opinion is automatically a political declaration, then, yes, I agree that some people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

warspite1

Yes I recall you like hunting in packs. Maybe makes you feel big.

As for your post, if you want to comment on someone's post have the common courtesy to understand the point first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I was surprised to see somebody in an earlier post citing The Guardian as a source of reliable non-political information.

I lived in London for many years (most recently in 2017) and I am familiar with the British press. The Guardian is not an authoritative, objective source of information. It is the paper of choice for those with left wing, and sometimes extreme left wing, views.

It promotes identity politics, victimhood and cancel culture. In these respects it is a print version of the twitter sewer.

In this discussion it is best to reference reputable medical sources of information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I was surprised to see somebody in an earlier post citing The Guardian as a source of reliable non-political information.

I lived in London for many years (most recently in 2017) and I am familiar with the British press. The Guardian is not an authoritative, objective source of information. It is the paper of choice for those with left wing, and sometimes extreme left wing, views.

It promotes identity politics, victimhood and cancel culture. In these respects it is a print version of the twitter sewer.

In this discussion it is best to reference reputable medical sources of information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Tough one. Generally speaking, most govts could could have done a better job IMO. But I agree with RJ - there is no reason for the govts to take on overly OTT restrictions on activity. I know the side effects of lockdown are killing people. Not hitting the news yet for some reason but it is happening.

Hopefully that is not considered political.