[1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation

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[1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 2:25:00 AM

Malevolence

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I can't say for certain what the world building mechanics should produce. This could be working exactly as designed. However, I make note of these results for inspection. They appeared odd to me. For example, despite numerous re-rolls of the Biosphere step, there was no change to the significant results.

New Game--scenario version #53.

After a series of odd world building rolls, the final planet had a deadly respiratory and bio hazard environments, but remained perfect for terran-like agriculture. That seems odd, but I'm not a botanist (would there be enough plant nutrients in the soil too?)

See the world building results below. I was already recording screenshots in anticipation of an issue. I assumed that some type of geological activity like volcanoes, etc. were impacting the environment (fluorine, sulfur dioxide), but no such issues appeared on the planet's map. The Geology report and Biosphere report, nonetheless, seemed mismatched.

Device is Windows 10 Pro 64bit, version 2004 (v19041.421), Intel i7-1065G7 1.30Ghz, 16GB RAM. It is a Surface Pro 7, connected to 2560x1600 display monitor via USB-C. Intel Iris Plus integrated graphics.

For reference, Game Build v 1.05-beta1; Scenario Build 1.05-beta1; Last Game Build used 1.05-beta1; Scenario Version Number #53.

Assumed earth-normal atmosphere... (approximately) nitrogen 78%, oxygen 21%, argon 1%, carbon dioxide 0.5%, and traces of neon, helium, methane, krypton, hydrogen, nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide, and xenon. Near-average sea-level pressure 1013 millibars.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 3:21:25 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 2:30:15 AM

Malevolence

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Geology report from the world building step. I was already taking screenshots, because, oddly, it reported an Earth-comparable atmosphere.

This geology report should not report Earth-compatible atmosphere, if details in this report (geological activity) and the next step will always make a non-comparable atmosphere.

It was not possible to re-roll from the Geology step after moving to Biosphere step. Unfortunately, that limitation prevented further testing.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 2:52:24 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 2:31:48 AM

Malevolence

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It was odd, because every next biosphere roll resulted in the same results. After more than two dozen rolls, the same results--with some differences in atmosphere composition percentages.

All rolls resulted in insidious atmosphere, deadly xenobiology hazard, none for atmosphere farming hazard, zero value alien tissue nutrition. Almost all rolls were shrubs and brush although some would result in forest.

That implies that something determined in the previous steps restricted the planet to these attributes.

The restriction was not conveyed in the previous steps. Or was it?

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 3:51:18 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 3:40:48 AM

Malevolence

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A restart from scratch. Similar issues.

Per image, a fairly earth-like planet, orbiting a Sol like star.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 3:47:45 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 3:43:20 AM

Malevolence

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Geology also fine--

Notes:

(1) always results in "arid planet with minimal surface water" statement -- assume this is some percentage of oceans, but unclear what percentage is the threshold for something other than this statement.

(2) always geologically active.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 3:44:59 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 3:45:36 AM

Malevolence

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Same Biosphere issues.

All rolls resulted in insidious atmosphere, deadly xenobiology hazard, none for atmosphere farming hazard, zero value alien tissue nutrition.

The restriction was not conveyed in the previous steps. Or was it?

Atmospheric composition seems more compatible in this world, but the results are the same.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 3:51:33 AM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 4:12:25 AM

Twotribes

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You know that a comparable to earth atmosphere does not mean the contents of the atmosphere are similar only that the degree of atmosphere is the same?

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 7:24:31 AM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

You know that a comparable to earth atmosphere does not mean the contents of the atmosphere are similar only that the degree of atmosphere is the same?

No, I don't know what a "degree of atmosphere" means.

If you mean the air temperature, then the sentence should read, "The planet will have an earth-comparable air temperature." However, I doubt that was the intended sentence.

I'm not sure there is an error. What I do know, is that given the information presented, I don't understand the results. Most importantly, re-rolls do not change results.

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 5:05:52 PM

Twotribes

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A planet can have no atmosphere, a little atmosphere, an earth like atmosphere or a heavy atmosphere, these are degrees of how much atmosphere there is not what it is made up of.

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 5:09:44 PM

demiare

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I had posted exactly similar bug previously - seems that game think that even trace amount of some gases is lethal for human, while it's not - filters will be more then enough to deal with ~0.5% of hostile gases.

In first biosphere roll 0.76% Fluorine is something utterly stupid. It can't co-exist with anything as fluorine capable to burn oxygen itself.

Your second biosphere is same as my - yean, filters should be more then enough in that case. Nothing really harmful here.

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 5:11:42 PM

demiare

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

A planet can have no atmosphere, a little atmosphere, an earth like atmosphere or a heavy atmosphere, these are degrees of how much atmosphere there is not what it is made up of.

It's degree of atmospheric density.

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 5:11:47 PM

Malevolence

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Please, would you mind a link your bug report here?

I think something not reported in the report screens is at play.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 5:12:11 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 5:26:23 PM

demiare

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Sorry my memory was wrong and I unwillingly lied to you. It wasn't posted as a bug, it was posted in general forum as a question because I'm lack knowledge about gases toxicity and was completely unsure is that realistic behavior.

Still link for post here (planet info & some players response included) - IS HERE

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 7:35:02 PM

Malevolence

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Thanks, it might help. And I wouldn't call that a lie in any case.

Half of everything I write, is only half of everything I remember. I can't remember half of what I've learned.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 10:57:54 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 7:46:13 PM

Malevolence

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Added reference, World generation question

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 8:30:02 PM

Antediluvian_Monster

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These are Limos class worlds with alien life forced with setting, right?

Description of Limos per manual:

"Named after the god of starvation. Not quite desert Planets, but not much
better either. They have some amount of liquid water, but they are always
void of life. If they were to have life they would be classed either Siwa Class
or Medusa Class."

As per the other thread, I suspect the thematic intent here is that the Limos class is always lifeless because it's toxic. The exact realism of the toxicity can be debated, but it might be the intent. A confirmation would help to clear this up.

As far as terran agriculture atmospheric toxicity goes, I'm not sure it's sensor jumps at anything except CO2. BHL level 4 should still make open farming impossible though.

< Message edited by Antediluvian_Monster -- 8/8/2020 8:36:05 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 8:50:16 PM

demiare

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Antediluvian_Monster
As per the other thread, I suspect the thematic intent here is that the Limos class is always lifeless because it's toxic. The exact realism of the toxicity can be debated, but it might be the intent. A confirmation would help to clear this up.

Toxic for human =//= toxic for alien life. Enable "Alien life" and you will see multiple example of non-water and non-oxygen based lifeforms :)
No, IMHO Limos are simply prohibited to roll alien life without a history class (while for example Borelis are able to do it even if it super rare and usually limited to sea bacteria / life-forms).

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 9:12:11 PM

Antediluvian_Monster

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That option was added after the conceptualization of the planet types though, and has all sort weirdness to it (you can make moon type worlds with life that breaths gases that are not present in the thin atmosphere, for one). Limos has been RHL level 4 since before it's introduction.

< Message edited by Antediluvian_Monster -- 8/8/2020 9:13:54 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 9:50:27 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Antediluvian_Monster

These are Limos class worlds with alien life forced with setting, right?

No, none of the worlds I posted above are Limos. Siwa and Medusa (but I couldn't determine which is which now).

I do suspect that the world type choice short-circuits rolls. It may force results, where the data created in previous world building steps is ignored in favor of some templated standard.

That would be fine if it was deterministic throughout each step of world building process, but it appears not to be or not working as such.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 9:53:20 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 9:51:47 PM

demiare

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Antediluvian_Monster
That option was added after the conceptualization of the planet types though, and has all sort weirdness to it (you can make moon type worlds with life that breaths gases that are not present in the thin atmosphere, for one).

This bug was already posted. Vic even state it was already fixed.

So free to remind him if it's still here.

And no, you was capable to generate breathable Limos before - of course with post-colonization oxygen generation if was lucky enough with it atmosphere. It was indeed hard.

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 8/8/2020 11:06:42 PM

Antediluvian_Monster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: Antediluvian_Monster

These are Limos class worlds with alien life forced with setting, right?

No, none of the worlds I posted above are Limos. Siwa and Medusa (but I couldn't determine which is which now).

I do suspect that the world type choice short-circuits rolls. It may force results, where the data created in previous world building steps is ignored in favor of some templated standard.

That would be fine if it was deterministic throughout each step of world building process, but it appears not to be or not working as such.

Excuse me, I got bit confused when you cross posted a link here in the other thread, I see now it wasn't really relevant question.

Overall, I don't really see anything out of order in what you posted. I have observed that the game does seem to make hidden rolls of sort (or perhaps fetches some basic template and then does variations on it, never staying too far). One that particularly sticks to mind are the biosphere colour variations on Medusa class. There are at least four of them (yellowish green, bluish green, cyan, red) but by the time you get to biosphere generation the generator is often hellbent on giving a particular one to you, usually either of the former two.

To comment on your initial posts in this thread in order:

1) This is bit weirdly indicated, but it just means the plants don't die due to atmosphere. They'll still die because the hostile alien bioshere.

2) This just means density/pressure. Bigger planets tend to have higher pressure.

3) Insidious, deadly* and zero value seems enforced for Medusa. The farming hazard rarely goes up, and if it does it seems to be due to lot of CO2. With billion year life history you probably have fairly young planet so you are more likely to get more basic vegetation (youth also seems to increase possibility of aquatic only fauna, provided you have lot of water).

4) No comment.

5) Water does seem to have some kind of hidden roll, but I have also had more luck with both water and rainfall on hotter planets. The terminology "arid planet" is weird, and should probably be understood in relation to Earth with 2/3 water. It's just that the game doesn't go more wet than arid planet at the moment (due to lack of navies presumably).

Geological activity at least presumably has some environmental (e.g. age, planet class) factors to it.

6) Same as 3.

*BTW, deadly in combination with non-zero value is bit weird, because it doesn't prevent xeno farming, not sure if this is a bug or if the idea is that some basic treatment can detoxify the crops.

demiare, yeah does seem fixed now.

< Message edited by Antediluvian_Monster -- 8/8/2020 11:28:06 PM >

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RE: [1.05b1] Potentially odd planet generation - 9/13/2020 11:25:04 PM

Malevolence

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This world generation issue remains.

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