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Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:18:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Attached is a screen shot of a coming feature of TOAW IV: Commanders.

Part of this feature will be a Commander List – similar to the Equipment List that is available to designers now. Recall that list has a couple of thousand equipment items on it. Similarly, we want to provide future designers with a few thousand Commanders as well (while they will be able to design their own Commanders as desired, a suite of stock Commanders will be a boon to their designs).

Within the Development Board a few of us have researched out a list of 3051 individual commanders. But that is just a list of their names. Their details and parameters now have to be devised. So far, only 92 of them have had that step completed. So, this is still a big project.

From the screenshot, you can see what is required for each. Each one must have a bitmap picture, a service arm, a rank, and a date of rank. Then there are six parameters to be estimated.

All I can promise anyone participating is your name in the credits as a part of the Commander Task Force. You will join myself, Bill Lott Jr., Jose Antonio (Josant), and Jo van der Pluym on that list. Send a message to my Inbox if you’re interested.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
Post #: 1
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:34:46 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I might be willing to help with the WWII Soviet commanders, although I'd like to know how many of them there are first...

Also, I don't understand the proposed rating scheme; in the screenshot above, on a scale of 0-1000, Napoleon rates a 125...who on earth gets a 1000?

At which level are the commanders? Formations? What will we do about commanders of formations that are not listed in the DB?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 2
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:41:23 PM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		Curtis, very nice feature.
But please, could you please allow the same for equipment? I mean just adding a frame so the users could upload a photo/drawing for each equipment (or the main equipment of a unit/counter). See for example the post umber 6 from Larry in this AAR.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4858507

Users could customize the photos, I'm just asking about adding the functionality so we have the space (where Napoleon is) but for equipment instead of generals.
Thanks again for keeping the game alive.

_____________________________


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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:52:37 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I might be willing to help with the WWII Soviet commanders, although I'd like to know how many of them there are first...

There are 599 Russians of which 232 are from WWII. (Plus 58 Napoleonic, 14 Crimean, 95 WWI, 115 Civil War, 7 Afghanistan, and 61 Cold War - plus some misc.).

quote:

Also, I don't understand the proposed rating scheme; in the screenshot above, on a scale of 0-1000, Napoleon rates a 125...who on earth gets a 1000?


In my instructions, I suggested that no one should rate above Napoleon. But I also left plenty of range.

quote:

At which level are the commanders? Formations?


Yes. Commanders command formations.

quote:

What will we do about commanders of formations that are not listed in the DB?


As I said in the announcement, designers can make their own.



< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 8/11/2020 4:58:05 PM >

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 4
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 6:53:57 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I'll try it with 50 of the WWII Russians...if it goes well I can do more of the WWII Russians and maybe Civil War Russians. No interest in any of the other periods.

When you send the list of names, can you send a couple of WWII "reference generals" to use as benchmarks? In other words, "if Manstein is X, then so-and-so should be Y". Or send me the list of all the WWII Soviet generals and I can pick out 50.

What format do you want?

BTW, I have lists of 1000 German and Russian surnames in XML or Excel format that can be used for "anonymous" commanders.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 5
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 7:33:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'll try it with 50 of the WWII Russians...if it goes well I can do more of the WWII Russians and maybe Civil War Russians. No interest in any of the other periods.

When you send the list of names, can you send a couple of WWII "reference generals" to use as benchmarks? In other words, "if Manstein is X, then so-and-so should be Y". Or send me the list of all the WWII Soviet generals and I can pick out 50.

What format do you want?

BTW, I have lists of 1000 German and Russian surnames in XML or Excel format that can be used for "anonymous" commanders.

Easier to just post them here. The zip contains the commander spreadsheet - with the commander names. You'll see that a couple of hundred have been done. And the instruction documents. And a sample picture file.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 6
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 8:15:23 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I took a look. Given that most of the (successful) commanders on the Eastern Front held several commands and various ranks during the course of the war, I think we should just provide one entry for each Soviet commander, a scenario designer can change his rank and command as needed. Probable the same for German commanders, at least on the Eastern Front. Otherwise you would literally need 6-7 slots for some of these guys.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 7
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 9:15:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I took a look. Given that most of the (successful) commanders on the Eastern Front held several commands and various ranks during the course of the war, I think we should just provide one entry for each Soviet commander, a scenario designer can change his rank and command as needed. Probable the same for German commanders, at least on the Eastern Front. Otherwise you would literally need 6-7 slots for some of these guys.

That will be the general rule, but there will be some rare exceptions.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 8
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 9:37:32 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline 		Obviously quite a bit of effort has already been put into this project, so I hope it isn’t all written in stone. I have a few comments and suggestions which may help to improve the product.

1. The term “Tactical Skill” is used in the criteria. I can just imagine those hard core TOAW-heads having a fit using “tactical” in an “operational” game. Maybe just shorten it to “Skill”.

2. Offensive Tactical Skill and Defensive Tactical Skill. Don’t think two categories are needed. After all, either a commander is, or isn’t, good at positioning troops for maximum effect. Suggest you combine these categories into one category such as Battle Management. This would describe the commander’s ability to plan, execute and manage a battle in both defense and offense.

3. Organizational Skill. This is good. To me it describes the commander’s ability to combine weapon systems, formations and supporting elements into an effective fighting force. Eisenhower.

4. Initiative. This is good although I would rename it as Aggressiveness. This describes the commander’s drive to take the fight to the enemy. Patton vs Lucas Clark.

5. Charisma and Political Strength. These are qualities which come into play in Parliament when a command is lobbied. I doubt that the troops on the battlefield care much about how the command was granted and I would drop them from the list.

6. Leadership. I would replace Charisma and Political Strength with Leadership because this is what motivates troops to advance in the face of fire and engage the enemy. Grant and Lee.

7. Experience. Add this category to describe the commander’s relative service time in command of a body of troops. Most commanders would have a relatively high ranking, however, there is always a “first” command or maybe a political appointee with no practical experience leading a formation.

8. Standard Model. Good that you have a baseline for assignment of values, but I think Napoleon might be too remote in history and surrounded by too much mythology to make a good standard. Suggest you select someone more recent, someone people may find familiar. General Schwarzkopf might be a good choice. Give him straight 100’s across the board and have the rest compared up or down accordingly. Actually, I think a scale of 1 to 10 would be better as an evaluation tool than 1 to 100 and 1 to 1000.

9. Whatever you decide to do, I think you’ll need to provide a definition for each category. Definition should include a thorough description of what is being evaluated and a method for quantifying the evaluation.

Hope you find this constructive.

Regards, RhinoBones






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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 9
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 12:46:09 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Obviously quite a bit of effort has already been put into this project, so I hope it isn’t all written in stone. I have a few comments and suggestions which may help to improve the product.

1. The term “Tactical Skill” is used in the criteria. I can just imagine those hard core TOAW-heads having a fit using “tactical” in an “operational” game. Maybe just shorten it to “Skill”.


The game is operational, but resolution of combat is tactical - based upon all sorts of tactical factors, like armor thickness, armor penetration, naval armor, shell weight, rate of fire, etc.

quote:

2. Offensive Tactical Skill and Defensive Tactical Skill. Don’t think two categories are needed. After all, either a commander is, or isn’t, good at positioning troops for maximum effect. Suggest you combine these categories into one category such as Battle Management. This would describe the commander’s ability to plan, execute and manage a battle in both defense and offense.


Some commanders are better at one or the other: Longstreet was a defensive specialist while Jackson was the opposite. If you think they should always be the same, then you can just make each the same.

quote:

3. Organizational Skill. This is good. To me it describes the commander’s ability to combine weapon systems, formations and supporting elements into an effective fighting force. Eisenhower.


It directly affects the commander's control of his units that are beyond his command radius. Plus, good organizers retain more of their tactical skill as they are promoted. Finally, poor organizers suffer supply difficulties.

quote:

4. Initiative. This is good although I would rename it as Aggressiveness. This describes the commander’s drive to take the fight to the enemy. Patton vs Lucas Clark.


It's the ability to act independent of a superior's command radius. Even if that action is to run for it.

quote:

5. Charisma and Political Strength. These are qualities which come into play in Parliament when a command is lobbied. I doubt that the troops on the battlefield care much about how the command was granted and I would drop them from the list.


Charisma is a commander's ability to prevent his units from routing or reorganizing - or to recover from those states.

Political Strength represents how difficult the commander is to remove from his command or promote/demote.

quote:

8. Standard Model. Good that you have a baseline for assignment of values, but I think Napoleon might be too remote in history and surrounded by too much mythology to make a good standard. Suggest you select someone more recent, someone people may find familiar. General Schwarzkopf might be a good choice. Give him straight 100’s across the board and have the rest compared up or down accordingly. Actually, I think a scale of 1 to 10 would be better as an evaluation tool than 1 to 100 and 1 to 1000.


There are plenty of examples. Nevertheless, the ratings aren't the important part. Getting the name right and the picture right are far more important.

quote:

9. Whatever you decide to do, I think you’ll need to provide a definition for each category. Definition should include a thorough description of what is being evaluated and a method for quantifying the evaluation.


I did - in the Word document I included in the attachment above.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 10
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 2:31:45 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Where are the command radii set?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 11
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 2:32:16 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		If anyone else wants to work on WWII Soviet generals, please coordinate with me so that we're not doing the same guys...

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 12
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 3:11:50 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Where are the command radii set?

In the Formation Report. It's a parameter of the formation, not the commander.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 13
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/13/2020 4:55:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Just in case, Josant says he is doing these:

Austria-Hungary
Bosnia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cuba
Egypt
India
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Jordan
Ottoman-Turkey
Pakistan
Spain
Syria
Yugoslavia

And Bill Lott has done the Russian Napoleonic War.

Finally, I'm doing the Americans.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 14
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/20/2020 6:04:51 PM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

If anyone else wants to work on WWII Soviet generals, please coordinate with me so that we're not doing the same guys...


Hello, I am at my Russian-language forum TOAW ready to help in compiling lists of Russian generals. If you post your developments in the form of a google table (like this one), then we can continue working together and check each other's mistakes

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 15
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/21/2020 12:53:53 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: andy77
Hello, I am at my Russian-language forum TOAW ready to help in compiling lists of Russian generals. If you post your developments in the form of a google table (like this one), then we can continue working together and check each other's mistakes

Hi, I actually haven't gotten very far on this yet, other than selecting the 50 or so Soviet generals I'm most familiar with. Honestly, I think this will be a rather difficult undertaking, because everything is relative--it is hard to set the ratings for Soviet generals without knowing how their German counter-parts are rated, for instance.

Also, as previously mentioned, many of the generals were promoted several times during the course of the war, and others suffered significant changes to their political ratings, etc. during the course of the war (Timoshenko, Budenny, and others).

Finally, all of these factors are very subjective...I see that the existing ratings rank Vasilievsky as better than Zhukov, which frankly I don't agree with at all.

If you are in a hurry to get started, we might want to start by dividing up the list of generals so that you're not waiting on my results. Would be great to "reality check" each other's results, hopefully they won't be too far off! Please PM me about how you'd like to proceed.



< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/21/2020 12:57:32 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/21/2020 6:27:27 PM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
If you are in a hurry to get started, we might want to start by dividing up the list of generals so that you're not waiting on my results. Would be great to "reality check" each other's results, hopefully they won't be too far off! Please PM me about how you'd like to proceed.


I found a large table of Soviet military leaders (from another game) and will use it to make my own - Soviet generals WW2

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 12:37:41 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		While you're at it, can we have ability to add NOSE ART for that air unit detail screen?

below nose art from https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/kg77.html






Attachment (1)

(in reply to andy77)
Post #: 18
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 12:55:05 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Not sure if this has been asked or not, but if this new change goes into place how will it effect all the thousands of existing scenarios for TOAW IV? Will this new feature just be ignored?

_____________________________


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Post #: 19
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 1:40:19 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: andy77
I found a large table of Soviet military leaders (from another game) and will use it to make my own - Soviet generals WW2

Wow, that's a pretty comprehensive list...which game is it from, WitE?

Given that comprehensive list of data based on a consistent approach, I'm going to suspend my effort as unnecessary.

(in reply to andy77)
Post #: 20
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 2:14:54 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but if this new change goes into place how will it effect all the thousands of existing scenarios for TOAW IV? Will this new feature just be ignored?

Correct.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 21
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 9:45:51 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Thanks.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 22
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/23/2020 10:06:55 PM   
Rodia


Posts: 123
Joined: 9/19/2012
Status: offline 		This message is just noise because it adds nothing, but I hope it's pleasant noise. I finally bought TOAW IV a month ago and I was surprised by the new and slick interface. While playing the North Africa campaign - the scenario that starts from 41 - I was just thinking how great it would be to know the commanders involved.

This new feature, if only for the chrome and historic purposes, will be most welcome.

And, BTW, some time ago I had to rate a lot of commanders for a project of mine and I also decided that Napoleon was the top one - even with my dislike for the guy!

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 23
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 5:44:18 AM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: andy77
I found a large table of Soviet military leaders (from another game) and will use it to make my own - Soviet generals WW2

Wow, that's a pretty comprehensive list...which game is it from, WitE?

Given that comprehensive list of data based on a consistent approach, I'm going to suspend my effort as unnecessary.

Yes, this is a table to WITE. I will supplement it with naval commanders, correct grammatical errors and start handing out parameters. I will try to involve other people who understand military history in this project in order to get an objective opinion.

There is a similar table for German military leaders - you could take care of them.




(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 24
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 9:34:07 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: andy77
There is a similar table for German military leaders - you could take care of them.

I'm not really interested in doing the Germans, I'm sure there are enough German fans out there to take care of that.

Let me know if you'd like for me to look at your completed list, although I'm not familiar with many of those Soviet generals on your list.

(in reply to andy77)
Post #: 25
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 5:26:01 PM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline

I decided to do two or three lines for commanders who have risen a lot in the command level and, therefore, in skill.The numbers of the parameters are still conditional, they are still far from being adjusted.




< Message edited by andy77 -- 9/24/2020 5:45:40 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 26
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 5:54:52 PM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I'm not really interested in doing the Germans, I'm sure there are enough German fans out there to take care of that.
Let me know if you'd like for me to look at your completed list, although I'm not familiar with many of those Soviet generals on your list.


Soviet military leaders will not be able to fight with themselves. They will need German opponents.
Something I don't see crowds of people willing to help. And how everyone constantly howled and suffered that there are no leaders in the TOAV game, and that's when you can help speed up this appearance - there is no one to help. But I am a moderator of the gaming forum - I am used to such consumer attitude of players.

... Therefore, we still have to do the Germans. If the Germans are so unpleasant for you, then you can continue to make Russians (or we will divide them in half) and I will deal with the Germans.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 27
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 6:44:59 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Has no one done anything with the Germans?

I have WitE/WitW so that may help, but I don't know how much of a herculean tasks this would be.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to andy77)
Post #: 28
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 7:31:44 PM   
andy77


Posts: 39
Joined: 11/16/2017
From: Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Has no one done anything with the Germans?

I have WitE/WitW so that may help, but I don't know how much of a herculean tasks this would be.


Here is the same as mine, the table of commanders axis - Here is the same as mine, the table of commanders axis . If you want you can work with it Or download it yourself -
Axis Commanders

< Message edited by andy77 -- 9/24/2020 7:33:25 PM >

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 29
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 9/24/2020 7:53:52 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Has no one done anything with the Germans?

I have WitE/WitW so that may help, but I don't know how much of a herculean tasks this would be.


Germans are nearly done. We're past half way on this with 1692 commanders finished as of today.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/24/2020 7:59:47 PM >

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 30
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