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Search and max range - 8/12/2020 12:57:37 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

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Status: offline 		The manual says that setting the max range to be less than the full extended range will improve the chance to detect during a Naval Search mission or an ASW mission.
Knowing that, what about the following?

Setting:
There are two floatplane models that are exactly the same apart from one having a an extended radius of 20, and the other an extended radius of 10. I have one aircraft of each type.
This is the start of the AM (morning) air phase.
Same pilot, same weather, same fatigue, etc, same everything.

Scenario 1. I set them both to Naval Search to their max range. So the range 20 plane searches out to 20 hexes, and the range 10 plane searches out to 10 hexes. At the end of the AM (morning) air phase, do both aircraft have the exact same chance to detect a ship 7 hexes away? Or does one aircraft have a better chance than the other?

Scenario 2. I set them both to Naval Search, but I limit the range of the range 20 plane to 10. So the range 20 plane searches out to 10 hexes, and the range 10 plane searches out to 10 hexes. At the end of the AM (morning) air phase, do both aircraft have the exact same chance to detect a ship 7 hexes away? Or does one aircraft have a better chance than the other?

EDIT: edited the original post to be crystal clear

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 6:51:19 AM >
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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 1:06:50 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

The manual says that setting the max range to be less than the full extended range will improve the chance to detect. Does this mean absolute terms or relative to the full range of the plane?

For example, if I have two floatplane types, and they are identical in every possible way (speed, morale, pilot exp, etc) except for range. One has an extended range of 20, the other has an extended range of 10.

If I let them search to their respective full range, will they have equal chance of detecting something at range 7?
Conversely, what if I set the plane with range 20 to fly at a max range of 10? Will they then have equal chance? Or will the range 20 plane magically have better chance?

Logically, since both planes have the same speed, the one with range 20 will only have equal chance of detecting if I set its max range to 10, it should have less chance to detect if it flies out to its full range of 20. However I just want to know if its true in the game.

Manual reference section?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 1:14:53 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


Manual reference section?


He's likely referring to this paragraph on page 151.




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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 1:14:56 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Manual reference section?


Page 151
Naval Search
ASW Patrol

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 1:15:23 AM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:19:21 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Search planes and a/c assigned to ASW search pie shaped wedges (the Player can assign the specific wedge(s) or let the computer randomly do it). At a range of 20 the wedge is 138 miles across at the a/c's maximum range. Flying at 6000 ft it's pretty easy to miss sighting a ship or ships especially if there are clouds obscuring vision in random directions (even with radar since side looking a/c radar was developed subsequent to WW2).

The infamous TONE search plane (at Midway-the one which launched late) cut short his route and consequently sighted the YORKTOWN TF but the YORKTOWN was actually in one of CHIKUMA's search sectors but the assigned plane flew above the clouds and missed sighting YORKTOWN.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:49:55 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Search planes can make multiple sorties, up to 3 times in a day (I think) if their max range is not set too long. A Nell set for 26 hexes will likely only make one. ASW patrols can probably make more than 3 sorties if you restrict the range sufficiently. That way the same plane could in theory attack the same sub multiple times.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 6:32:58 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
Status: offline 		Thanks but it doesn't answer my question.
Let me be more clear.

Setting:
There are two floatplane models that are exactly the same apart from one having a an extended radius of 20, and the other an extended radius of 10. I have one aircraft of each type.
This is the start of the AM (morning) air phase.
Same pilot, same weather, same fatigue, etc, same everything.

Scenario 1. I set them both to Naval Search to their max range. So the range 20 plane searches out to 20 hexes, and the range 10 plane searches out to 10 hexes. At the end of the AM (morning) air phase, do both aircraft have the exact same chance to detect a ship 7 hexes away? Or does one aircraft have a better chance than the other?

Scenario 2. I set them both to Naval Search, but I limit the range of the range 20 plane to 10. So the range 20 plane searches out to 10 hexes, and the range 10 plane searches out to 10 hexes. At the end of the AM (morning) air phase, do both aircraft have the exact same chance to detect a ship 7 hexes away? Or does one aircraft have a better chance than the other?

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 6:51:07 AM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 7:41:24 AM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 10:30:22 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred


So the manual is outdated, and setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range does not, in fact, improve chance to detect?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 11:00:54 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred


So the manual is outdated, and setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range does not, in fact, improve chance to detect?


That is not the question you asked, and no the manual is not outdated on this.

You asked about two aircraft models, one with a 10 hex range, the other with 20 hexes. Both set to search only out to 10 hexes, ceteris paribus, they have the same chance. The longer legged plane is not superior to the shorter legged plane. Of course in AE ceteris paribus would not apply in practice as there will be some difference somewhere.

Suggest you search for my posts on the subject.

Alfred

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 12:23:35 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		If you turn on the search arcs you will see how many bites of the apple you get depending on the max range you set. One color for morning, one for afternoon, one for just one that day, another for two or more. You'll also see that some pie slices get one sweep and others get two, depending on how wide you set the search area and whether you set the search to go through that area in a clockwise or counterclockwise fashion, and again, how deep you set the search for, how many planes you have in the squadron not in maintenance or repair with enough air crews to man them.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 12:34:02 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Then there's the weather. And the altitude you set the planes to search at. Then there's the skill level of the aircrews, and don't forget, is the commander the kind who will get every possible plane out there or the kind who spends too much time in front of the mirror fixing his hair?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 1:08:24 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
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From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred


So the manual is outdated, and setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range does not, in fact, improve chance to detect?


That is not the question you asked, and no the manual is not outdated on this.

You asked about two aircraft models, one with a 10 hex range, the other with 20 hexes. Both set to search only out to 10 hexes, ceteris paribus, they have the same chance. The longer legged plane is not superior to the shorter legged plane. Of course in AE ceteris paribus would not apply in practice as there will be some difference somewhere.

Suggest you search for my posts on the subject.

Alfred

The manual says "Setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range will improve the chance to detect, as this can translate to more flights by the same plane."

What you're saying makes it look like the reference to the plane's full extended range is meaningless, but improvements to the chance to detect ships is linked to the absolute range of the mission, not the range as a certain ratio of the full extended range of the plane doing the search. Right ?

So, it wouldn't be useful to use longer-legged patrols when you plan to limit the search range due to, for example, a heavy CAP on a nearby base.

And could you give a link to your prior posts ? I tried a google search, but to no avail... (although I found this interesting old tidbit https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884834 about AM search ranges being limited to an endurance of 4 hours)

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 1:52:23 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That is not the question you asked, and no the manual is not outdated on this.

You asked about two aircraft models, one with a 10 hex range, the other with 20 hexes. Both set to search only out to 10 hexes, ceteris paribus, they have the same chance. The longer legged plane is not superior to the shorter legged plane. Of course in AE ceteris paribus would not apply in practice as there will be some difference somewhere.

Suggest you search for my posts on the subject.

Alfred


If
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred


then
chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 = chance to detect of "range 10 plane" searching out to 10, and
chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10 = chance to detect of "range 10 plane" searching out to 10

then
chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 = chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10

Which contradicts the manual, page 151, "Setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range will improve the chance to detect",
which means that according to the manual,
chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 < chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10


To put it in another way, like the post above asked. Is the chance to detect linked to the absolute range of the mission, or to ratio of (max range set by the player/full extended range)?

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 2:17:22 PM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:24:23 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The full extended range is the potential. If you go that far that plane may only make one sweep. If you cut the range it may make more. What don't you get?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:26:14 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The extended range is useful for CAP because if the target isn't at the full range there's more time spent over the target. Search has no need or use for dawdling. You go out and come back. Then if you have time you go out again. Same for ASW.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/12/2020 3:27:24 PM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:36:29 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Taken any two plane models, the potential range doesn't matter, the range you set matters. At that point the more planes you have means the better chance you have. The part you're thinking contradicts itself doesn't. Any two planes with sufficient range will spend the same time per trip, but if you want to increase your chance of finding a target at five hexes, limit your range to 5 hexes and you'll increase the coverage. It doesn't make any difference at that point how much potential range one has over another. Given the same orders to the same achievable range you will get the same result, all other things being equal.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:39:47 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Taken any two plane models, the potential range doesn't matter, the range you set matters.


This is what I thought, however:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes.

Alfred


The above post says differently.

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 3:43:03 PM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:45:15 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		In your example, for Scenario 1 I would say that strictly speaking the aircraft searching the shorter distance would more likely spot the tf at 7 hexes, but not have a greater chance of doing so.

In your simplistic example, a single plane might spot a task force in its extended range, and miss a task force at range 7. By setting the range to less than extended range, you eliminate the possibility of spotting distant task forces and subsequently have a greater opportunity of spotting closer task forces because it hasn't returned to base among other reasons.

There is a whole host of advantages to not flying max extended range. This is one of them.

Also, there is a whole host of reasons why flying a search arc with one plane is folly. Ask the Japanese at Midway.

And finally, the game doesn't seem to operate in a vacuum. There are quite a large number of ways to increase DL...and although I have no proof, I think previous earned dl can influence how a patrol plane executes its search.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:50:30 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Bad wording perhaps. It is true, but pass for pass. As the other sentence states, if you limit the range you may get more passes, ergo more die rolls. It does not matter the range of the plane as long as it can get there. So if your short range plane can get there once, so can the long range plane. They may both get there twice if you limit the range of the one plane to the maximum of the other. If the shorter range plane can't get there the question is moot.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 3:57:33 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Play around with those search arcs and you'll see that there's no difference as long as you set both to the same range. You'll also notice they don't go all the way to their max range because at the end of the leg they make a turn perpendicular to the radius and go awhile before coming back. The further out they go, the longer that perpendicular leg gets.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:02:32 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Bad wording perhaps. It is true, but pass for pass. As the other sentence states, if you limit the range you may get more passes, ergo more die rolls. It does not matter the range of the plane as long as it can get there. So if your short range plane can get there once, so can the long range plane. They may both get there twice if you limit the range of the one plane to the maximum of the other. If the shorter range plane can't get there the question is moot.


Is it possible to see how many passes your squadron has done during an air phase?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:09:39 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Not that I'm aware of. Perhaps Tracker accesses that? You can predict how many beforehand but a plane may break down or have a problem. Ask Nagumo how that worked for him at Midway.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:17:05 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert You can predict how many beforehand but a plane may break down or have a problem.


How do I predict beforehand? Say I set my Jake to search to its max range of 10. How many passes would that be?

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:18:32 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I believe there's a consensus on it (or we'll hear about it) but players tend not to set search arcs on carrier TFs at sea, trusting that the commanders we picked will get the search planes where they need to be. I almost never set the arcs for carriers and have enough planes on search, especially using the escort's float planes (and if weather allows) to have complete coverage to all points of the compass. For land based, I use arcs a lot, partly to cover water and not land, sometimes to avoid enemy CAP over large airbases.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:21:21 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I also may limit the ranges for search at land or sea to avoid heavy CAP zones. I have to remember that with BB TFs for instance, as I may dare to make a close pass to such a zone and lose a lot of float planes in the process.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:26:12 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next.

DL not not carry over per se, but if the intelligence people knew the TF composition, speed, and direction at sunset or at a certain time during the previous day or night, then an of probability can be drawn as to where that TF is now located.

Just look at the battle of Midway, the KB TF wa detected at a certain time and the Hornet's dive bombers missed it entirely. If they would have been there, maybe the Hiryu would have been sunk earlier and the Yorktown not attacked and subsequently sunk.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:28:32 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert You can predict how many beforehand but a plane may break down or have a problem.


How do I predict beforehand? Say I set my Jake to search to its max range of 10. How many passes would that be?


How many Jakes do you have and what range did you set and how wide the search pattern? Each plane is assigned a 10 degree arc. Turn on the show search arcs and it will tell you by the colors displayed for each 10 degree wedge. If you don't set arcs it won't tell you. I think everyone just makes sure everything is covered sufficiently with a lot to spare if there's much at stake. Also if it's carriers and you set the arcs it's extremely important to see where the morning runs are because you may easily lose the battle if your searchers don't find the target til the afternoon. That's why we don't set the arcs for carriers, when the sun comes up they may have passed you in the night and be behind you. You have to spot them right away. Double or triple the amount of planes used over the minimum necessary.

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:32:50 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next.


Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc"

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/12/2020 4:39:24 PM >

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RE: Search and max range - 8/12/2020 4:35:33 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		The one who gets there firstest with the mostest does the bestest, and the one who gets there lastest with the leastest does the worstest.

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