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DL, MDL and naval reaction

 
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DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 2:35:42 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		So, I've been browsing and searching the boards, and found the following :


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
[...]

In AE radar has never operated in the manner inferred from the OP it should. Been pointed out several times by devs (Symon most prominent), LoBaron and myself. All it does is aid in increasing the DL at which point I have to, once again draw attention to chapter 10 of the manual.

Note in particular s.10.1.1.1 of the manual which categorically states, and which so many refuse to accept, that the DL of a TF is set to 0, zero, nada at the start of each day and night resolution phase. A TF with a DL of 0 is not going to appear on the map at all, a TF with a DL of 1 or 2 is probably not going to be found even though the aircraft know it is out there somewhere.

[...]

Alfred

(from here : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3916123 )

This bothered me, as I have had ASW TF react to submarines, the movement obviously happening before the phase's air sequences.

The manual (section 10) explains the difference between DL and MDL.

So, maybe the answer is obvious, but does it mean it's the MDL which determines if a TF will react ? I guess so.

But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.

So, if a sub TF has a MDL of exactly 1, does it mean ASW TF won't react ?

And as a sub TF only increases its DL by 1 for each aircraft spotting it, if there are no attacks on either side, and given MDL is halved for submarines at the start of each phase, am I right in assessing you'd need to spot the sub with 8 planes on a given day to have a chance of an ASW TF reacting the next day (and 4 planes for a night reaction) ?
Post #: 1
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 3:30:18 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
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quote:



But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.


The question is how does a Sub TF show on the map when its MDL=1? According to the rules, it has to be visible on the map. I think it's represented by a sub symbol even at MDL=1, and ASW TFs may react to it, although I'm not sure at all.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 2
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 4:43:23 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453


quote:



But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.


The question is how does a Sub TF show on the map when its MDL=1? According to the rules, it has to be visible on the map. I think it's represented by a sub symbol even at MDL=1, and ASW TFs may react to it, although I'm not sure at all.

MDL of 1 is minimal, and I am not sure if it even narrows the location down to a single hex. Within a hex of 40NM diameter, there is a heck of a lot of water for a sub to be in. I am pretty sure an ASW TF would want more definite info before changing hexes and using the fuel.

You may not be aware, but the react routine for ASW is incomplete. An ASW TF might react several times a turn to a sub in the next hex, but it will never attack as part of the react- that part of the routine was never programmed. There is a chance that once both the sub and the ASW TF stop in the same hex that normal detection/attack could occur.

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Post #: 3
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 4:50:43 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		TFs operate day and night, unlike planes which do one or the other. I suppose radio intercepts and sampans blundering into one affects the DL day or night, air ASW or no.

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RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 5:10:58 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You may not be aware, but the react routine for ASW is incomplete. An ASW TF might react several times a turn to a sub in the next hex, but it will never attack as part of the react- that part of the routine was never programmed. There is a chance that once both the sub and the ASW TF stop in the same hex that normal detection/attack could occur.


This.

ASW TFs don't react to attack. They react, and if, oh, by the way, there's a sub in the same hex they may attack.

< Message edited by Admiral DadMan -- 8/12/2020 5:12:02 PM >

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RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 5:46:33 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Do a forum search, we have beat ASW reactions to death.

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 6
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 5:55:27 PM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
MDL of 1 is minimal, and I am not sure if it even narrows the location down to a single hex.


I have no idea about ASW, or reaction routines, but I'm fairly sure that subs at MDL=1 show up on the map as a sub symbol in the correct hex. The reason for this is the option of turning FoW off is making everything having a minimum MDL of 1, and you can see all the previously undetected subs now show up in the correct hex, with a sub icon.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 6:01:17 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		How do 2 subs in a task force show up?


(in reply to thephalanx1453)
Post #: 8
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/12/2020 6:04:26 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		On TF, size two. You may not see the type depending upon the DL.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 9
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 1:51:43 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Here's one on ASW 'reacting'.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4438801&mpage=1&key=asw%2Creact&#

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 10
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 1:56:55 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		And here's another which seems to show an attack, but as another forumite pointed out it was a response to a failed sub attack.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4610730&mpage=1&key=asw%2Creact&#

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 11
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 2:01:27 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 12
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 2:10:48 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.


Are all "sub vs surface" combat the result of submarines deciding to attack the TF?

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/13/2020 2:11:20 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 13
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 2:33:06 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.


Are all "sub vs surface" combat the result of submarines deciding to attack the TF?


No.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to thephalanx1453)
Post #: 14
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 2:38:38 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		As said above, no.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 15
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 2:38:43 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
Status: offline 		Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?



< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/13/2020 2:47:01 AM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 16
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 3:39:14 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?


What does the manual say about sub on sub attacks?

Also, why bother with ASW task forces?

Since you seem not to be satisfied with my answers, I will not respond to your questions any more.


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to thephalanx1453)
Post #: 17
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 4:18:18 AM   
thephalanx1453

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/13/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


What does the manual say about sub on sub attacks?

Manual says that subs can initiate combat against subs unless both are submerged.

Also, why bother with ASW task forces?

That's what I'm wondering also. I'd just like to know what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub. The reverse situation is clearly described in the manual, so I thought that it would be too.




< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/13/2020 4:20:58 AM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 18
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 5:00:52 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 8/13/2020 5:01:23 AM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to thephalanx1453)
Post #: 19
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 6:45:51 AM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

And here's another which seems to show an attack, but as another forumite pointed out it was a response to a failed sub attack.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4610730&mpage=1&key=asw%2Creact&#

Thanks for the links.

When an ASW TF enter a hex with a sub, don’t they have a chance to detect it and increase its DL ? Doesn’t that increase the odds of attacking during the movement phase ?


ÉDIT: and now I have read them. I have the feel the source of the confusion is semantics - I don’t care if they move during the Naval Reaction or Naval Movement phase, as long as they move and end up attacking the subs (and whether it’s after a failed sub attack or not, and not as part of the « reaction », is not really relevant either, as the point is to get them to attack).

I’m sad to see the lack of attacks doesn’t stem from a will to make attacking subs hard to do, as would be historical, but from a lack of code.

< Message edited by Ambassador -- 8/13/2020 7:25:44 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 20
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 8:53:12 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Gentlemen, you are over-complicating this -

1. Get plenty of air search working to spot subs; this will also make them dive and reduce their ability to find targets.

2. ASW TFs under the air search "seem" (a purely anecdotal observation) to have a better chance of finding them and attacking them, but...

3. One of the reasons for putting escorts with convoys is to make the subs go to the convoy for targets, and in effect put themselves in range of the escorts' weapons.

4. The concept of hunter-killer groups (even with CVEs) roaming around the ocean looking for subs is flawed. The hunter killer groups in the Atlantic did not really do that, they reinforced the points where the U-boats gathered - attacking a convoy. You can do this in the game - have an ASW TF follow a convoy at zero hex range. The cargo ships will refuel it and it will put on a separate attack to the escorts.

The possibility of an ASW group actually finding a submarine in a large patch of ocean, unless the submarine attacks it, is, whilst not completely far fetched or fanciful, too remote to expend scarce resources on.



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Post #: 21
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/13/2020 12:52:12 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?


If that section really is headed "Sub vs Surface", it might not cover "Surface vs Sub" - i.e. an ASW TF hunting for subs.
At any rate, the sub seems to get the first opportunity to decide whether to attack or slink away, then the ASW capable ships get a chance to detect. If the ASW does detect, it has to be able to get in position to attack. If it cannot, it searches and the battle may or may not continue depending on continuing detection of the sub and the ammo supply of ASW vessels.

Note that earlier detection of the sub makes it much more likely that escorts/ASW ships will find the sub before it attacks and non-ASW ships will avoid the sub in the same hex. So (air) Naval Search to detect the sub, ASW patrol (air) to localize the contact and ASW TFs to attack the sub are the best way of dealing with them.

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Post #: 22
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 1:26:49 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Do you guys ever bother to read a combat report:

ASW attack near Singora at 51,72

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Atago
CA Takao
CL Jintsu
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Asashio
DD Hibiki
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio

Allied Ships
SS KXVII, hits 3

SS KXVII is sighted by escort

A submarine attack:

Submarine attack near Iwo-jima at 106,81

Japanese Ships
xAKL Taganoura Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-39

xAKL Taganoura Maru is sighted by SS S-39
SS S-39 launches 2 torpedoes at xAKL Taganoura M




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/14/2020 1:27:35 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 23
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 5:55:24 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Yes, I do.

What's your point?

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 24
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 6:49:34 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Do you guys ever bother to read a combat report:

ASW attack near Singora at 51,72

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Atago
CA Takao
CL Jintsu
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Asashio
DD Hibiki
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio

Allied Ships
SS KXVII, hits 3

SS KXVII is sighted by escort

A submarine attack:

Submarine attack near Iwo-jima at 106,81

Japanese Ships
xAKL Taganoura Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-39

xAKL Taganoura Maru is sighted by SS S-39
SS S-39 launches 2 torpedoes at xAKL Taganoura M




From one of rustisy’s links (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4611298 :


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

An ASW attack is notated by "SS Saury is located", not "is sighted". The latter tells you that Saury was making an approach on the TF to make an attack, but the escort spotted it first.


So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 25
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 7:18:15 PM   
alimentary

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 3/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 26
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 7:22:35 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.


That printout is of two separate attacks.

In the first, the TF attacking the sub is not an ASW TF. Its ASW elements just happened to detect the sub first.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 27
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 7:31:26 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?


The short answer, and the only one I'll give here, is no.

So what happens if I cross the international date line? Guys, you are making this too 'involved', and I for one am done.

A better option is just to sit back and enjoy the game. You are not going to get 'pat' answers to much of anything in this game. If that is what you're use to, go back to playing whatever you played before.

Sorry to be so blunt, but...

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 28
RE: DL, MDL and naval reaction - 8/14/2020 7:59:31 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?

No, the sub has it's chance to attack, subject to a die roll. If the die roll says it should attack, the ammo state check says it cannot, so the attack is canceled. Now the ASW vessels have the opportunity to detect the sub. On a positive die roll they have the opportunity to try and attack it. And so it goes - all based on chances of taking action or not.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 29
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